S2 Ep.07 – Eva Hamboldt - The feedback revolution
Feedback has become a core component of work-life and the way we collaborate, but from a growth- and advancement-perspective it might not be hitting the mark. With Eva Hamboldt we explore how our brains react to feedback, why it might not be the best solution and how we could choose to do feedback instead.
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Introduction
Eva Hamboldt brings more than 20 years of experience within strategic communications, organisational development and individual coaching. Her main focus is on educating and supporting teams and individuals to navigate through all sorts of developmental processes. She designs and runs tailored training and consultancy services for leaders and organisations in all sectors. Eva holds a Bachelors in Communication Sciences and a Masters in NeuroLeadership from the NeuroLeadership Institute in NY. The neuroscience perspective is embedded in all of her work. Eva is also the author of "the Feedback Revolution - NeuroLeadership in practice".
Want to connect with Eva:
linkedin.com/in/evahamboldt
Website:
https://neuroledarskapipraktiken.se/
Explore Feedbackrevolutionen / The Feedback Revolution:
https://www.bokus.com/bok/9789189323421/feedbackrevolutionen-neuroledarskap-i-praktiken/
EP. 031 Transcription
[00:00:52] Welcome Eva.
[00:00:53] Thank you, Shani. I'm super excited to have you here and for us to have this conversation. A lot of what you talk about and teach has followed me for a long time, , and I'm excited to bring it to, to more people with you. I'm thinking, one of your, the main things that you talk about, or not talk about is feedback.
[00:01:17] You have a bone to pick with feedback, , , and, you recently published a book called The Feedback Revolution, or in Swedish, which is the native language of the book Feedbackrevolutionen Yes. So before we talk about what the book is about, I'm just really curious what brought you to write the book? Mm, well, it's a long story, but to make it short,, I've, I've worked as a consultant for many years and I have delivered, uh, different trainings and workshops and,, leadership coaching where feedback has been central.
[00:02:03] I've praised it, I've stood up and said, oh, feedback is the way to go in order to create,, better teamwork or in order to develop as a human being, or in your, in your role. But somehow along the way, as I got to know, The new discipline, called NeuroLeadership,, which, came from the States.
[00:02:30] And David Rock, who is also a consultant but has, created this, he calls it a discipline. I call it a perspective, which is the brain's perspective on how we lead ourselves and how we work with leadership in organizations and how we work with developing processes,, ways of working in organizations.
[00:02:54] And when I got to understand a little bit more about how the brain works and how vulnerable we are as social creatures and what can be very threatening to the brain. Maybe we don't think about it as threatening, but we can experience some kind of discomfort when we enter into a feedback process.
[00:03:23] Whether we give it or have to receive. It doesn't matter when we have to sit there and, and sort of talk about ourselves or, or receive information about ourselves from somebody else. That is quite a difficult setting and it's a difficult task. And it's basically based on the fact that our threat system in the brain reacts very quickly to anything that might, , threaten our identity, our ground values, who we want to be,, and of course our ambition to, to feel.
[00:04:06] Competent, important, and to be seen as competent and important in, in the eyes of others. So I, I started feeling quite a lot of discomfort when I, when I worked with feedback and I said this, no, this isn't the right way to go. So I started in 2016 actually. I started to, to think a lot and reflect a lot and do some research about what is feedback, where does it come from, and, and how come that is the way we are supposed to communicate with each other in organizations.
[00:04:46] Cuz I, I never really understood that, but I just did it.
[00:04:51] The more I understood that there is no research that actually can validate the fact that we, we do prosper as individuals or organizations from feedback as a concept for communicating with each other. I just, all of a sudden I felt a passion for bringing that to more people and actually an intention to.
[00:05:19] Contribute to a shift in how we look at what is relevant to talk about in organizations. So in 2016, I actually, invited people to a seminar, which was the, the absolute first context where, I tested my, my reflections. I sort of, um, how do you say?
[00:05:48] Yeah, I, I don't know what, what the expression would be in English. In Swedish, we talk about this like trial printing. Yeah. Before you actually do the printing, you do a trial to make sure everything is, is right. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Yeah. And I was surprised how many people were interested. So I had, I had a lot of people in the room where I could get their instant, responses and instant reflections on my thoughts, which led me to, thinking, uh hmm this could be a movement,
[00:06:21] Hmm. I would like to start a movement. So I continued having seminars. and then the pandemic hit. Uh, we did have a seminar. There were only nine people in the room, with two meters apart, , but we did it in a room for 60 . Wow. Yeah. That's the dedication. Yes. But we did it. And then during the pandemic I actually thought, well, maybe I need to bring it in another form and shape as well.
[00:06:52] So I started my work, um, on the book. On the book. Yeah. I love hearing, and I think a lot of us, myself included, are observing this shift and the pandemic definitely accelerated it in many ways. Yeah. And for a lot of things, and I think we're still very much in confusion about what we're shifting towards even.
[00:07:14] Yes. Um, just that we are questioning a lot of things mm-hmm. . Um, so that's always a beautiful place to start because it's very explorative. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, of course, how would you then describe some of your conclusions? Like, what is it that you landed in? Is our, I don't wanna say destination, but
[00:07:38] Um, what, what are we moving towards instead? If we're moving away from feedback? Mm. What's the better experience? Mm.
[00:07:49] So, yeah, you can't, the, it's important when you make, when you do a revolution, when you're a, a rebel, that you just don't rebel about what you don't like , but actually try and try and contribute to something new, an intention, a direction. And I didn't want to offer an answer to this is how we should do it instead, in a very sort of,
[00:08:22] Boxed in, uh, model. Mm-hmm. , I wanted to describe the capacities we need to use or the, the competencies we need to use in order to communicate with each other so it becomes more meaningful for us. Cuz a lot of what I hear from people is that feedback is difficult, but it's also very often we don't understand the message.
[00:08:50] We don't understand what, what we're meant to do with the information that we receive. Mm-hmm. and sometimes we don't even understand where it comes from, which creates a lot of, of course discomfort in the interaction between people, but also reactions which make people sort of move away from interaction.
[00:09:16] with each other. Mm-hmm. . So there is no meeting or we lack that human, encounter mm-hmm. where we connect and where we can find a space, where we can explore to understand each other, to learn from each other, to problem solve together. Um, and to support and help each other. And I think that's what we need a lot of today to resolve a lot of the issues that we, that we face.
[00:09:51] Mm. Within the organizations, but also outside what we're dealing with, the challenges that we we're dealing with. On a global level, planet level. So not talking at each other, but with each other. With with each other, yes. Yeah. Because we're as a, as you said, we we're in a shift and I've also heard the, the need and long for more human experiences.
[00:10:20] Yeah. Like you are, yeah. You're not saying it's a revolution, but it's, you're, you are speaking for a shift mm-hmm. For more human experiences. And that's, that's basically what I, I'm trying to do as well. Mm-hmm. Through how we communicate with each other. So I think we need to focus instead on building relations, not evaluating, deliveries or, productivity or whatever else it is we're expected to do at work. When we shift to focus on building relations or, and building safe relations, building, trusting relations, we will release more of our potential, which means that we become stronger and better and more competent as a group or, as an organization. And to do, to do that, how do we build relations?
[00:11:18] Well, we need to focus on much more on reflection, like self-reflection. I need to understand. Myself, what can trigger reactions when I end up in defense, behavior, and how I affect others when I do that. How I contribute to the dynamics of a group, for example. And I need to find acceptance for that so that I can make conscious choices of how I want to interact so that I support the system or support the group or support another individual.
[00:11:58] And then of course, sometimes we also need to reflect together in order to expand our thinking with the help of somebody else's reflection. And when we do that, we, of course, we need to be curious about another person's perspective. So, to choose curiosity as a state, as a mental state, or as an emotional state.
[00:12:27] This is something that we need to practice, because it's very hard when we're stressed or under pressure or cognitively, tired, which we are most of the time at work because , I would say, yeah, uh, we run from meeting to meeting so we need to make a lot of conscious choices. And one of them is to actually try and be curious.
[00:12:54] Most of the time. . I love that . Be curious most of the time. Yeah. It's really interesting, I think, because I'm privileged enough to speak to a lot of different people who drive movement in different ways from different angles, whether it's feedback or self leadership or belonging or, you know, there are any number of angles you can choose into this.
[00:13:21] And it would seem curiosity and self-awareness are two really, really core pieces of any angle you choose in this movement. Yes. Um, yes. Because it's an inside out curiosity, right? Mm-hmm. , just be curious about you and be curious about the other. And that's the way we also shift, I think, from the focus of being right or piling our opinion onto somebody to exactly what you're saying.
[00:13:50] How are we meeting each other and connecting and creating together instead. Yeah. Which is a really different state of mind. Yes, it is. And what I usually hear is, but oh, but that will take time. But that takes a lot of energy. And I say, yeah, well, it takes a lot of time and energy to repair the damages of, of feedback processes as well.
[00:14:15] And we, we cannot connect that activity to any kind of higher purpose because there is no research showing that there is a purpose or that, that there will be a result. But we do have a lot of research showing that if we, engaged in these kinds of set, these kinds of activities, , there will be positive results on how we function and how as an individual and how we function together as a group.
[00:14:48] So, what I know you to talk about are more meaningful dialogues Yeah. That actually have a mutual sense of benefit for both people in it. Yes. What does that look like? So it's based very much based on reflection. Mm-hmm. , we need to reflect before we go into dialogue with somebody else.
[00:15:11] We need to reflect while we're engaging in dialogue with another person. And we definitely need to reflect afterwards so that we can learn from it. I made a model, but it's not a model. It's like a, it's a platter. It's a, it's a menu of behaviors, if you will.
[00:15:32] Or actually abilities or capacities that we need to use. And one of them is reflection, self-reflection and reflection together with others. Another one is to be curious and to explore. And we need to, we need to tap into the brain's, functionalities for prospective taking when we do that, mentalizing trying.
[00:16:02] To understand another person's feelings, thoughts, perspectives, values. So we need to park ourselves for a little while and step into that other person and look at things from their, from their perspective or their view, which is a difficult thing, but it's something that we can practice and get better at.
[00:16:28] But we need to use what we have as resources, our capacity for empathy and capacity for, mentalizing or perspective taking.
[00:16:46] The third aspect or perspective or behavior ability that we need to work with or focus on and practice is how we can describe. our own experiences, how we can become clear and predictable for other people so that they can feel safe with us, so they can trust us. Without projecting frustration or opinions when we do that.
[00:17:15] So we actually, we stay with our experience, our observations, our thoughts, our emotions, our needs based on the situation, not based on what somebody else did, but based on who we are and how we know ourselves. Mm.
[00:17:38] So being descriptive so that I can include others in my perspective. Is one part of meaningful conversations. Mm-hmm. . And then I think a lot of the time we're also caught in our, , busy, busy day of doings. And we wanna do check, check, check on things and we, we actually miss out on stopping for a while, taking time to actually appreciate what we've done, the small steps we've taken in the process, or appreciate somebody's contribution to something or we're actually appreciating just somebody's presence.
[00:18:36] We do have a, a brain. with, a tendency for negativity. We have a threat system, which is five times bigger or more developed than the reward system in the brain. So our first interpretation of things, it's very often that we rather look at what we haven't done than what we have done or what was bad instead of what we did well
[00:19:05] what you don't contribute with, instead of what you actually do contribute with. I think we need to help the brain shift from negativity to positive outlook. most of the time. Mm-hmm. . And then I think we need to say thank you to each other a a lot more than what, when we do show gratitude. Because gratitude, if appreciation boosts our sense of status, our sense of importance, and, being competent, gratitude is more on a deeper level, more meaningful.
[00:19:57] And more on a relational level. So I see the, the good energy you have, I see. Your intentions or your ambition. I don't look at your behavior. I do see that you, you want to do your best and I'm grateful for that.
[00:20:12] Helping the brain to shift from the default mode, negativity or, just fixing things and fixing others, just a survival to being grateful for what we have or what we are, or what we do.
[00:20:29] I remember, I facilitated some workshops, also with a lot of the inputs, from your teachings a few years back. And actually, I remember one of the core insights for some of the people in that workshop was, and it was so nice to see it on their face.
[00:20:47] They were like, oh, , it's normal that I am feeling negative. Hmm. Or in doubt, it's normal. Yes it is. And then the discussion was more, it is normal. Mm. Your practice is more about how long you stay there. Yeah. And how fast you are able to move through to something else or help yourself out of this fight or flight or threat response or wherever you are.
[00:21:18] Yeah. It's not that you're there, everybody. Starts there, . Everybody starts there. Everybody gets away from having a threat response in their brain. We all do. Yes. And I remember it was so nice when they had this sense of relief. Yeah. And then their curiosity opened.
[00:21:36] Ooh. See how that's what happened? How do we do it ? I would love to Yeah. Just maybe dig in a little bit more to how do we help ourselves get out of that? Because it can feel a little bit, like a whole, just this negative bias problem focused. What what do we do? Yeah. Well, we're, as you say, we're quite quick to feel lonely and, and that we're the only one in the whole world that is, is there in that hole and we're.
[00:22:12] quite quick, to judge ourselves for that. So the first step, I love that. I love that reaction and that insight and the relief and how they could experience the shift or the possibility to open up to curiosity once that relief was there. That's extraordinary. So in order to help ourselves, we need to get in contact with, we need to shift from judgment to empathy.
[00:22:45] And, and the way to do that, of course, is to say it's normal because that, that, that is forgiving yourself and saying, accepting yourself for being human. This is what it is to be human. We're all struggling with this because we're hardwired like this. Uh, and now that I know that, I have the choice to practice, to shift and say to myself or be compassionate with myself.
[00:23:18] So it's okay now that I'm aware I can stop that behavior and I can try and choose another kind of behavior. So how would I like to act instead? And maybe I, I won't be able to do that in the situation where I am. Maybe I won't be able to do that fully. Next time it happens. And then I need to look at and see myself as an intentional creature.
[00:23:46] I'm just trying and as long as I'm trying, I'm working from good intentions and I'm working from self-awareness and praise myself for that. . Mm. So we need to reward ourselves for trying instead of waiting to reward ourselves when we're done. Cause we're never done . We're never done . Thank God. Cuz if we were done all of a sudden in the middle of our life, what would we do after
[00:24:17] Yeah. Very true. would be bored. Mm. Or we would be a pain in the, for other people cuz we would be perfect and nobody could stand us . No. Very hard to empathize with somebody. Somebody who's perfect. It's perfect. Yeah. Thank God nobody's perfect. Mm. Yeah. I'm just thinking, I mean, a lot of the things you talk about, they're quite profound.
[00:24:44] They require quite a lot of, a lot of us. And that's not necessarily habits that everybody has No. Or things that everybody feels inclined or have a desire to even lean into? No, because it's a bit uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. How, and I mean, I know you, you work a lot within the corporate space because you're talking about feedback.
[00:25:09] So what are, you know, what are some of the reactions that you get with this? What are, both directions. Resistance and, taking it in. Yeah. So I'm trying to apply the same, the same ability that I ask of others when they work with themselves, which is patients. persistence and resilience
[00:25:35] Yeah. And be an acceptance of No, no. Not, not everybody is interested in this, just straight away. So what can I do to make people curious based on where they're at in the moment and not expect more of people than they can, you know, that they can offer in, in the situation. And then I, of course I have to, I have to self-regulate when I'm reactive to people's, resistance.
[00:26:10] When I hear this is fluffy. Yeah. . And sometimes I've, I've gotten that all of my career as well. I can tell you. Yeah. Yeah. And that is a, a huge trigger for me. Hmm. And sometimes I just, I just say, if I hear the word fluffy again,
[00:26:32] Yeah. And, and, and I've been rehearsing things to say back but then I would be in, I'd be, I would be working with, fight , I would be fighting. Which, which isn't the best way to be if you want to inspire people.
[00:26:49] Of course. , no . So accepting that I need to, I need to be adaptable to how people receive this. Um, and be curious about
[00:27:04] how I need to do it also. Mm. So that it becomes, collaboration where, you know, but what I've found is that when I bring research based input on the brain and connect that with how, what consequences that has for how. Function from a psychological perspective, it's very hard not to relate to it or recognize yourself.
[00:27:35] And if I do it in a way which is normalizing, it's easier to take it even though it is a bit, scary or uncomfortable or so lowering the threshold for people to open up, and to want to look at themselves.
[00:27:55] That's a big thing. Yeah. So, lower lowering expectations on the speed of this shift. Yeah. I'm just, just going back to the shift thinking also is, I'm just thinking here you are, you know, going into a space where feedback is serving a very clear function for many companies.
[00:28:23] And pulling that out and putting something else in which might not serve the same function is a scary thought. I'm curious in your perception on this, why do you think we hold on so tightly to the idea of feedback? What is it that we're using it for today in the shape that we're proposing it today?
[00:28:45] Well, when it, when it comes to habits and feeling safe, any kind of change is threatening. The feedback model as it serves, as now is of course easy in the sense that it's a structure that you can hold onto and letting go of that structure can be scary. And you don't know what you're getting instead. And then I come and talk about things that are quite difficult and takes, takes some self-reflection and some, questioning yourself or asking yourself questions about yourself, I think it's normal to react with resistance or with insecurity and if there's no structure like the one we have built around feedback, then it's not an easy shift. No. So that's why I, I say that. Yeah, we'll take that structure and look at that structure and see where you could integrate more of aspects of, a meaningful conversation.
[00:29:50] Mm. So that you increase the level of meaningful in that feedback process. Mm-hmm. , that's one step, but I know managers who have actually taken that, um, piece of paper with the questions that they're to work with or from, and just thrown that away and started talking just with the person in the room.
[00:30:20] But of course you also need the knowledge, so, I mean, there's an educational perspective to this as well. There has been feedback training going on for ages. Yeah. There is still and there is still. Yes. Mm-hmm. now maybe integrate other kinds of training knowledge about how the brain works. Knowledge about how to work with emotional self regulation. Mm-hmm. knowledge about the brain's tendencies for nega negative bias.
[00:30:57] And I gonna go on and on. I'm listening to you. I'm also thinking that I've also spent a lot of years in the corporate space, obviously, and, and in many ways I, I feel like we use feedback as an assurance to guide performance and to ensure people are doing what they're supposed to do, or, what is expected of them in, in many ways and fulfilling a role.
[00:31:26] And I think this shift that is happening now is also putting into question that type of thinking in, in the sense that a, most of us don't at live in a vacuum. We don't do things on our own. We create things together and. , so I'm same as you. I'm questioning what does the conversation look like? Hmm.
[00:31:52] That leads us to connect more and create more value together rather than, and you were on, you were talking about this in the, at some point also is how do we refrain from this judgment? Hmm. Like piling our judgment onto somebody else's. This is what I think about your performance, or this is what I think about what you're doing, and why is my opinion and perception of this more important than the other person?
[00:32:18] I know last year I had a team and, and we were going through this performance evaluation process. and I felt really strange and, and weirdly humbled about it. Cuz here I am and I'm, in my thirties . Mm. And I have people in my team who are in their fifties and they've worked loads longer than I have.
[00:32:41] Mm-hmm. . And I just felt, who am I? Yeah. To judge their performance. Yeah. We can talk together about how what we're doing and what you are doing is leading to something, or is contributing or connecting into what we're doing but either way, it's like a mutual responsibility here. Yes. I'm not, I, I really felt out of place .
[00:33:10] to be judging. Anybody on this and, putting a stamp of approval at least for me, that's why I find a lot of peace in, in your ideas, is that they switch this focus because, and it's hard, I think because our organizations are also wired to control performance.
[00:33:32] Yes. And this is asking something completely different and a lot more maybe faith and trust. Mm. Before you actually see anything. Anything. Um, and now we're talking . Now we're talking. Yeah. Yes. And I get that is the whole shift. Mm. That is the very difficult shift that is needed. The, the organization shifting from controlling performance to allowing for relations.
[00:34:10] Mm-hmm. not just saying it, cuz a lot of organizations say it. , but they don't work accordingly. But since communication is sort of the, the blood of an organization it's the blood flow, it's the energy that creates how the organism of an organization works. I think that's one, one place where we could start.
[00:34:37] I was inspired by, Renee Brown. Hmm.
[00:34:41] She's done a lot of research on shame, and I think we underestimate the, how much shame is walking around in the corridors, at the office, and I think the feedback model and the feedback processes that we have to have or avoid having because of that, there's a lot of people who have the same experience as you.
[00:35:17] Mm-hmm. , what right do I have too? Why should I, so they avoid it instead, um, which can create a sense of shame. I'm doing, not doing my job. I'm not a good manager and she uses a metaphor of. Because she touches on feedback as well, and she says, well, we can sit on the same side of a bench. And I mentioned it in my book, so I stole it from her.
[00:35:46] If we can sit on the same side of the bench and look at something in front of us, sharing our art respective, perspectives on that, then we can start working with feedback, but I I, I would like to sort of take that word out of our vocabulary. So I'm saying instead then we can start to problem solve, for real. Which will boost performance. I'm thinking some people might argue that it's also a question of how you define the word feedback. Hmm. Yeah. But I, I did some research on that as well so throughout history, ever since, you know, feedback became part of something we should deal with as human beings because it originally, it's from, you know, engineering.
[00:36:43] And how we work with controlling systems to function in order to restore balance in the system.
[00:36:50] So they've been discussing the definition throughout history through, since early 19 hundreds. Uh, and we still do, but the, the ones I found, they're still about steering, controlling, and it's about, Restoring, some kind of balance. It's not about development and it's not about,
[00:37:16] increasing insights so the definition is very far from what we use it for. Mm. Where we think it will, it will open up, it will create cultures of, openness. Mm-hmm. , . No. It's the feedback, feedback loop is meant to put something back in its original position.
[00:37:44] Yeah. Yeah. In the position where it's supposed to be or expected to be. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . That's interesting. And I'm also thinking of this in relation to whatever terminology we want to use, VUCA or like just the unpredictability of the world. Mm-hmm. , which is that we don't know what's happening in six months.
[00:38:07] No. Most of us can't predict what's gonna happen in two weeks. Mm-hmm. and, and then this tight steering might become very limiting. Well, I guess when you're in a shift, you have one foot in the old way of doing things in one foot, in exploring a new way of doing things.
[00:38:27] And I think the controlling, parts. speaking about new ways of doing things, but still controlling the system or controlling performance or the outcomes that you're going towards. Yeah. yeah. Is, is, yeah. Is a sign of the times and, and maybe necessary, but I think we need to lift that one of, that, that foot who's still in the old In the old Yeah.
[00:38:55] A little bit more. Um, and dare move even more into the new, unpredictable way of working and rely on people's good intentions and trust that people want to contribute to the greater good. Mm-hmm. Because that's, that's how we're born. Mm-hmm. That it's deeply meaningful and deeply rewarding for us as human creatures to contribute to the greater good.
[00:39:31] I love that you bring that up. Um, and I share in your observation that sometimes it's also about how the potential of humans is perceived within an organization. and that a lot of performance frameworks are kind of rigged in terms of there are high performers and low performers and, and I , it just, I have so much Ugh,
[00:40:02] Yeah. So many things to say about that because as you're saying, you know, we all come with a huge amount of potential and, um, and I've, I've, you know, very vocally also objected these things and, and with saying, I think we're asking the wrong questions, we should be turning the mirror to ourselves as an organization.
[00:40:27] and ask ourselves, are we aware of our people's potential? Yeah. Are we understanding where they can best serve? Are we making sure they are in that place and they're supported in that place? Then of course, there's always the mutual responsibility. Nobody is free of responsibility when we're working together.
[00:40:48] Mm-hmm. . But I, I've, uh, yeah. I share in that observation that there is something also about how we perceive people's potential and that there are structures and organizations that would still look at people in like a rank. Hmm. Yeah. Versus look at people as, you know, a huge untapped source of potential, whoever you are.
[00:41:16] Yeah. And that's also a shift. There are many shifts. Oh, there are so many shifts that Yes. Uh, of how we talk about things or the mindset we have towards things. Mm. I agree. I'm also,
[00:41:38] that's, uh, yeah, that's a tough one cuz that's dehumanizing people. Mm. Basically, uh, categorizing people. But we do it where we do it when we're stressed. We do it when we're caught in a system under pressure that is, we're controlling things and making things effective or, or efficient. I, I really, I love, and I, I popped into my head what you said in the very beginning that if you want to revolutionize something, you have to not rage so much against things, but inspire towards something . Um, so I really like that we've, we've had that balance in that, in this conversation.
[00:42:33] a little bit of raging against . Yep. Yes. We need to do that too. . Yes. But a lot of just digging into, um, yeah. What it could look like . and that. . It's not a set destination and it's an exploration that we get to do together in our relationships, in our organizations, in our teams. Yes. , so I wanna, I always think with these like big concepts, it's always really useful to try and like, bring it down to my level, me as a person.
[00:43:11] Yeah. Because sometimes it's so ungraspable, these big shifts, these things that happen outside me. Um, what have you seen to be some of kind of the most powerful actions that people take or that you have taken to boost these capabilities that you were talking about? It's a good question. It is actually, it's a lot of small things, but some of them, one is to be observant of my own truth. Hmm.
[00:44:00] And dare question them to, to find a space where I actually say, Hmm, could I be wrong? I'm thinking this, could I be wrong?
[00:44:24] And, actually try and stay curious, uh, looking for. There might be other answers or are other ways of seeing this, or maybe there is no given answer. So maybe I, I need to stay in the discomfort of not knowing. I hear a lot when I talk about my model, who is in a model, meaningful conversations, but. . How, how do I, how do I do it? Or how do you do it? And I say, I'm sorry, but it depends. It depends on . It's the worst answer you can give anybody. , I know everybody's always looking for the little silver bullets and structures.
[00:45:20] And just take them and apply them. Yes. it, it, it depends on the situation. It depends on what the relationship looks like with the person that you're struggling to communicate with. Mm-hmm. , it depends on your, what kind of, what, what behavioral patterns you have, what is it you need to go from or, or shift from.
[00:45:51] So I'm saying, Accept, maybe, maybe accepting that there are no given answers right now. , this is a time for exploration and be humble and forgiving with yourself and say, if I can just explore, I can use this model, even though it doesn't give me, from A to B. And just be curious and, and try, maybe if I can be more curious than the next conversation with that person.
[00:46:24] What could that result in what or what, what value could that bring? For me or for that person?
[00:46:32] Maybe if I reflect a little bit more before I go into that conversation, or maybe I need next, maybe I'm too quiet when I c when I talk to that person, maybe. , I'm very, maybe I'm difficult to understand, so maybe I need to be more open and describe more of what I think and feel and what I need.
[00:46:59] Maybe that could contribute with value. In the conversation with that other person and just, well, yeah, I'll try that next time. Maybe I won't be able to, to manage doing it a hundred percent, but yeah, to look at whatever I do as an experiment. Hmm. I love that. I just wrote down and as I was listening to you, it's just, I was hearing was this explorative self-talk.
[00:47:28] Um, yeah, yeah. Trial and earth like we do when we're kids. Yeah. We trial, we try and, and earth and we learn from it because we haven't developed that voice yet Who says, Who? Who? Judge. Yeah. . . Sorry. Yes. No, no, no, no, no, no. . You're not good enough. You should have done better.
[00:47:50] As I'm listening to you, I'm, I'm thinking all of these things are also a practice. Yes. Like the one thing you get good at, better at is actually asking yourself the questions. It's not necessarily having any answers, it's just, it's the question asking Yes. It's the question asking. Mm, exactly.
[00:48:10] Hmm. And the trying Yes. the daring to try Yeah. The daring to try. Yeah. I didn't write about it a lot and, or maybe I didn't even write about it at. , that's your next book. . No, but Carol Dweck. Yeah. Who has brought the growth mindset. Growth mindset, yeah. Concepts to the world. Which is, which is something you could also, so experimenting, not judging, thinking.
[00:48:40] I, I cannot yet, instead of this is too hard, I, I won't even try. Cuz I can't, cuz I don't have the capacity or Cause that very often when we think we're not interested in something is because we're doubting our ability to do it. So that's one way of defending ourselves against, having to face potential failure.
[00:49:06] I also keep thinking sometimes when we learn, when we set our goal states to rigidly. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It becomes very easy to fail. Yes. And it becomes very much about whether I got to this point or not in, in a super concrete way. Mm-hmm. . And I mean, on a very personal level, I've always been this like overachiever persona in my early twenties.
[00:49:32] And while I was studying and didn't get that grade, it was terrible. And if I didn't get that, you know? Yeah. And as I worked my own way out to that, a lot of it became about more how do I feel when I succeed? How do others feel when I succeed? What are the things I can contribute with? Um, and then instead, you know, you a, you succeed a lot more often Yes.
[00:49:59] Than you do if you're just waiting for that end result all the time. Mm-hmm. because your success is more accessible. Mm-hmm. , but it's also more flexible. Yes. And you don't have to fixate on if I did get exactly this thing or get exactly to that goal. , but you don't know how it arrives. We don't know how it comes our way.
[00:50:19] So, um, yeah. I also think sometimes this explorative is about also maybe of, it's good to have direction and vision. I always believe in that because it's nice to be facing something. And it's easier for us Yes. To move towards something if we have a sense of at least some, some sense of what that is.
[00:50:39] But then if we lock it too tightly, it has to happen this exact way with these exact people and this is good. Yeah. No, then we, it's setting ourselves up for misery when we do that.
[00:50:54] I think it's important to have a higher purpose with what the goals that I set for myself. Mm-hmm. and the higher purpose can, can, can give direction who I want to be as a person, who I want to be as a manager, who I want to be as a colleague, how I want to live my life, how I want to contribute to, and then the, the goal setting becomes those small steps towards that higher purpose.
[00:51:25] And that can be a lot of things. And it's about my adaptability, not a, cuz one thing I'm exploring now together with my, partner in crime is how we very often work with setting technical goals. We should achieve this by then. But on the way there. We need to work wi with ourselves as humans, and we need to be adaptable.
[00:51:51] But we're never, ever talking about setting goals for adaptability and to talk about what we need in order to work with, with ourselves in getting there. Mm-hmm. And that can't be rigid because anything can happen and we, yes, of course we can have self-awareness, but when we're facing new situations, we don't know how, how we'll react.
[00:52:19] So we need to be, have that psychological flexibility of taking it and taking it as it comes along. And then we need to be able to. Support ourselves in handling that, when it is, tough or difficult or we risk, ending up judging ourselves or, checking out mentally and emotionally because it becomes too difficult.
[00:52:55] So lowering the bar is one way of working with not setting too rigid goals. Yeah. Or focusing on breaking it down more into, you were saying like rewarding how we are getting there. Yes. Not that we are getting to the goal, but how, how we are moving towards it. Yeah. Mm. Yes. And reminding ourselves why we are.
[00:53:24] striving there. For direction. And it's better of course, than that. The, the purpose or the, what we're striving for is not something that we're moving away from. Something that we're moving towards too. Mm. Our own little revolution. . Yeah. . Yeah. Revolution, evolution. Little revolutions. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because I'm also hearing this, you can, even if you're not calling it feedback, and if you're not practicing it the way we've been taught
[00:54:01] it's still a tool to serve us in guiding. and enabling us . to both move towards objectives. And grow as we're doing it. Yeah. Instead of it being just this, putting ourselves in place. Yes. It's more of creating this common movement. Yeah. Which is beautiful, I think, and it also invites more people into that dialogue.
[00:54:31] Well, we talk a lot about inclusion in the workplace now because we, we also work, we need each other more and more and more. Well, we, well, basically no. We, it's always been like that, but yeah.
[00:54:46] It's more apparent to us that we need each other more now because we're, we are more connected to a, a common challenge.
[00:54:56] But we also live in more diversity within the organizations. Mm-hmm. . Um so yes. To, to enabling as many people as possible to move in the same direction is is vital. Yeah. Enabling as many different people as possible as possible to get on a train towards something common. Yeah. And still maintaining their differences. Yes, definitely. This is something I like what you were saying is that it's also a preserving of each person's perspective and so it's beautiful to see that there are ways of creating space for us to exist with each other and not to necessarily have to become one another . Um, but instead how can we bring each of our gifts and uniqueness to the table and what, what movement forward does that create instead?
[00:56:00] So center those things. Um, that's a beautiful tool to have. Mm, wow. You put it so beautifully.
[00:56:12] listening and digesting all the things that you said. , , you summarize it. So, so lovely. Any last words before we wrap up? Oh, um, reflections that are hanging out there for you. Yeah. Well, right now I'm a bit overwhelmed, uh, cuz we've touched on a lot of things. Mm. Uh, I'm inspired by you and I'm very much motivated to continue this revolution towards meaningful dialogue or towards more meaningful conversations.
[00:56:49] And I, another important thing to remember, which. , I forgot to mention, it's that this way of communicating will increase the level of engagement in the organization. Should get to tap into more of who people are and the potential that they have. Yeah. It's a funny thing, but when we connect and when we feel valued, when people are curious about us, when people listen to what we have to say, something happens within us that fuels engagement.
[00:57:45] Both engagement into the task, but definitely engagement in engaging in other people. . Yeah. Which is equally important. Even more, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. A lot of food for thought, , . And hopefully this, this conversation will spark more people too , to create little revolutions of their own. That that would be nice.
[00:58:18] Get on the train. Get on the train. , join the shift. Yay. Um, yeah, just a huge thank you to you for sharing your knowledge, your perspectives, your exploration, and it's always a pleasure to learn from you. Thank you. It's mutual. Always a pleasure. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers.
[00:58:46] I hope this episode brought you some new insight. A special thanks to Eva Hamboldt for sharing so generously of your research and experiences and for spending this moment exploring. Don't forget to click subscribe, and as always, get in touch with any questions or suggestions. That's how better experiences are built.