S2 Ep.20 – Shani and Steve - 10 lessons
In this special episode Shani and Steve look back on their first year of running Wonder together and what it means to do life and business in a more human way.
They share 10 big lessons they’ve learnt over the course of the year and the different facets of more human.
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EP. 044 Transcription
[00:00:00] Shani: Hi, welcome to this special episode of The Experience Designers. Do you want to say something?
[00:00:14] Steve: I, stalled there and I was like, Oh, I don't really know what to say. Uh, hello everyone. A very special one. Very special one. Yeah. We're
[00:00:23] Shani: celebrating one year of Wonder and uh, More human,
[00:00:28] Steve: more human indeed. And we, we just wanted to, you know, record, um, a short ish episode for you, um, because we just want to share our journey a bit, because I think it's important that, um, yeah, like anything in life, anything new, or when you enter into a new venture or new role or job, or in our case, creating a company from scratch, um, we wanted to also honor.
[00:00:57] Our journey a little bit, I think, and just to, yeah, reflect and just share with you the audience a little bit about what some of our learnings are, um, in the hope that hopefully inspires you in some way as well. Um, that's the intention from my side, for sure.
[00:01:13] Shani: Definitely. So we've, we've thought a little bit each on our, on our side, like what are lessons that have popped?
[00:01:21] I'm sure there have been much more along the way, but I feel like we've, we've been quite good at reflecting and incorporating them into our daily work as we go along. Which is probably why it's good to just stop and wonder as we, as we say that you should, and look back and, um, appreciate, uh, what has been and what has happened so far.
[00:01:42] Thank you.
[00:01:43] Steve: Definitely. And we, and we always do these kind of, we always do monthly retrospects anyway, and our, and our way of normally doing that whilst laughing at each other. Um, we, we actually look at our calendar to remind ourselves what just happened in the last month because it goes so fast and it's quite hard actually.
[00:02:01] And so to actually reflect over a year without looking at the calendar, um, yeah, that's an interesting one. So, um, Yeah, no, definitely some learning. So look, we've got 10, 10 learnings to share out, uh, five each. Yeah. And given that you have, uh, a heart on your chest today, let's start with, uh, with a pair of eyes.
[00:02:23] Let's start with your, uh, with your first one, Shani. Let's, uh, let's jump in. Yeah, let's start with my
[00:02:30] Shani: first one.
[00:02:32] Steve: Mmm.
[00:02:34] Shani: I think that's something that has become. Really clear to me this year and as we dove into speaking to different companies and different people is that we can't create more human experiences if we are not willing to be more human as individuals, we can't just outsource it to the systems and the structures and it's it's a combination of.
[00:03:01] Mindset and skill set that we need to dedicate ourselves to in different ways, and we, we won't create different types of solutions unless we are willing to, to change. And I'm saying this also from having observed myself this year and how much it can be really hard to give yourself a break. I'll give yourself a rest.
[00:03:26] I've learned this about myself. I'm terrible at resting. And I'm terrible at asking for help. And yeah, I think it goes with that also, of course, then to a personal place. But, but overall, that being in a space of change. Is as much about the system as it is about the individual that is upholding it or recreating it or dismantling it or whatever it is that we're doing with it.
[00:03:54] Steve: Yeah, that's a really, really good one. I love that. Um, how, how is that just to, just to ask a question on that? How has that transition been for you from a corporate system, very system led environment, of course, into then a complete startup? Where there is no system, and it's a completely open field with no silos, no hierarchy.
[00:04:23] How has that been?
[00:04:27] Shani: Yeah, it's a bit both and, I think. I know there have been moments where you've said to me, it's like, but you're the boss. I've had to remind myself. Whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Um, and at the same time, I was always the anarchist in the system. So, to a certain extent. Um, a lot of things are similar.
[00:04:49] I think what I mostly noticed is how much I have kind of absorbed these ways of thinking, like I owe time back, or if I do this now, I need to do this later because I need to have X amount of hours, uh, on my, on my schedule or, um, yeah, just different concepts that we work with within. A confined corporate space or within a space of work, even, um, that is, and I think it's a very fine line between honoring a commitment.
[00:05:28] Which is still saying, right, this is what we're dedicating ourselves to, and not making it about the details all the time. Um, so also figuring that out. I think that's been the bigger thing, just some of these concepts and ideas that have come back to haunt me a little. Um, and then from other places, like...
[00:05:48] more around ideation or following kind of your hunches and the data that you're seeing from that point of view, it's just been fun because I feel like, okay, now I can actually go with something that I'm observing and I don't have to ask for permission or, or, or say, I'm sorry at any point. Um, so from that point of view, it's been, it's fun and liberating, but definitely.
[00:06:11] I, especially I think the first half year, I think I came to almost every week with something that I noticed that I had kind of, um, yeah, taken to heart that wasn't actually, uh, very free.
[00:06:27] Steve: Yeah. And it's transition, right? I mean, it's a, it's a transition. It really is. Um, so yeah. Cool. Cool. Very good. I like that one.
[00:06:34] That's a good one. Um, okay. I mean, of course, like change always starts within ourself. We know that. And I think just to build on that, because my first one actually links into that, which is lovely. It always works like this. Are you amazed? Um, so that's why we're in business together, I suspect. But, um, but no, I, I'm, for me, the word that first came out was listening.
[00:06:56] Um, I think what, what I've, what I've both learned in myself and also, of course, you know, we have to walk, walk our walk and talk our talk and everything with that, you know, we're human centered designers. We think people first, human first. Um, and just in terms of our process of listening to people and understanding their perspective is a really, really big one for us in terms of how we thought about.
[00:07:23] Uh, some of our productization of our services, how we're bringing value to people and to really just meet people where they are. I mean, you know, some of the, the focus groups that we were doing, uh, with some of the kind of the people in HR groups, for an example, it's still, it's still half haunts me and still, I'd still, uh, yeah, it just hit me really hard of this epidemic of loneliness.
[00:07:51] That we have inside people teams and how much demand is put on them from the business yet they're under resourced and they're very much alone. And that, that was really. Just that one, that's one of lots of learnings. Of course, that's an example. But for me, that was an example of taking time to listen and to really put aside your assumptions, put aside any hypothesis that you think people or experiences people that you think people are having and just listen.
[00:08:24] And I think also just to kind of put this into context of organizations and businesses. That's something consistently that we're, we're always challenging. Is just okay. So you think this is the problem or you think this is the solution to that problem? Um, why don't you just write that down on a piece of paper and put it in an envelope for a minute and let's go a little bit deeper and then let's open that envelope and, and let's see if later further down the line to see, okay, where was it right or actually is there adjustment on your On your perspective through the listening process.
[00:08:57] So I think for me, that's my, that's my big, that's my big first one. Uh, both in terms of observation, but also as well, how we've gone about things is we haven't chased money. We haven't chased revenue. That's not been our top priority. The priority for us was like creating foundation based on a solid understanding and listening.
[00:09:18] And I think we've done that really, really well, which has given us a direction and confidence of. What we're doing and where we're spending our time. Um, so I think that's, um, that's a big lesson for us. I mean, I think, um, we're very, we're very aligned like that. The inputs create the outputs. Yeah. And whether that's revenue or growth or success or impact or whatever label or word we want to use as an outcome, um, it's still grounded in inputs and that's, um, that's where we put our focus, which I think is great.
[00:09:52] It's a good learning.
[00:09:53] Shani: Has the process of listening given you any surprises, any curve balls that you weren't expecting when you kind of went into the listening? Has it changed your mind on something?
[00:10:06] Steve: Uh, I, I, I would say it's probably, okay, externally in a market perspective, I would say, yeah, I, I would actually say we're further behind than what I thought we were in the sense of employee experience, EX, and.
[00:10:27] I think there's so much work to do there is, and it's, and it's hard, it's hard. It's not easy. Um, so, so there's a double side coin to that for me, it is that, and I think that's been a, probably a learning, which I've taken, but on the other side, I see nothing but potential and opportunity because of that.
[00:10:48] So I think that's probably one of my biggest. Takeaways, I think. Um, and then I think on a more personal internal level, um, yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm learning. I'm kind of going into probably my second one, actually. But, uh, my learning a little bit with that question. Yeah, go for it. If I may, if I may. Yes. Um, my, my second learning is surrender.
[00:11:15] Actually, I, I've been struggling a bit with that, um, of just surrendering control, uh, surrendering that it's going to be okay, actually, we are doing the good work. Um, and yeah, stop trying to control everything. And I'm not a control freak, I don't want to portray myself as that, but, but I'm, it's more like when you think you can surrender.
[00:11:42] You can surrender some more again, right? And, and I think that's something which I think we both like reflected on coming into the summer now is Certainly the last few months. It's been a bit tight. It's felt a bit tight and a bit serious. Mm hmm. And I think Yes, the break is going to be good for that But I think the learning coming after the summer is going to be let's surrender it and enjoy the moments In the moment if that makes sense.
[00:12:08] Yeah. Yeah
[00:12:09] Shani: entirely I have, I have one, I have one to match you actually. I didn't phrase it as a surrender, but it kind of is the same, the same meaning. I wrote something around trust versus control. Uh, and it's both on, on our own level or on our very personal, uh, notes, but also what I'm observing outside of ourselves and in the structures that are being built, because we.
[00:12:34] We chase control and certainty when things move fast, when things when there is unknown, when, when there are a lot of demands, and we don't know entirely how to address them, then control and constraint is actually a reflex that we, that we use. And I think, especially in, in bigger corporate structures, that's a lot of what people's solutions and people's structures kind of aim to do is, is guarantee some type of outcome.
[00:13:06] And and so we, we grab a lot for that. And then on the other end of that, we have these kind of more trust based, um, models around psychological safety around different types of things where you actually have to lean in and believe that. When you have the right people, when you have the right types of actions, when you have a goal and direction, then it's going to lead you to the right place and you have to trust.
[00:13:35] And so I think I've, I've also been in that, uh, thought of like the trust versus control and where can you let go of control. And, and also is grappling with that question is. How do you, how do you trust more? Because it's not just a question for you and me, which it obviously is, and something that, as you're saying, when you can, when you're surrendering, like when you think you've surrendered, you can surrender a little bit more.
[00:14:02] And I think that's true for a lot of settings where people work together is, is you have to trust, you have to trust the other, you also have to trust yourself. And I've had this conversation with a few people of how do you actually create trust and how it's this parallel thing of You have to learn to trust yourself, your own abilities, your abilities to deal with whatever comes, because there is no guarantee that everything that comes is going to be fantastic, obviously, we don't know that.
[00:14:35] We have to trust that we can deal with it, if and when it comes. But also, how do you set up... Something, a frame that isn't controlling, but it still allows you to feel trust in, in your environment and the people around you. And so it's this balance, I think, of a collective and individual thing, uh, that I've seen both in our, I mean, even if we're two people in our collaboration, but also in a lot of discussions that we've had with organizations and with people who work with these questions.
[00:15:11] So yeah, trust and, and surrendering and, and also not choosing that path of control. Um, I always, I used, I used to always ask people, do you want to steer or do you want to enable? And I think, I always do that from that place of, is there availability for you to let go of a little bit of your desire for control and think more of how do you make other types of choices possible for people?
[00:15:46] Steve: Yeah, good one.
[00:15:51] Shani: Okay, what's your number three?
[00:15:54] Steve: So, I would say, um, I would say my third one. actually predates our launch date of, um, 2nd of August officially, um, was actually do the work and align. So, and we've talked about this, you know, throughout the year, we've referenced it back a few times and. I, I just want to honor that work that we did as two people who just happened to come together at a certain time and the timing is everything with these things in terms of our life journey, our work journey, our thinking, how we see the world where, you know, there's like, let's not forget just how many things need to come together at that moment in time to make a commitment to each other.
[00:16:56] That we're going to create a business together, right? I mean, that's quite amazing. I think on one level and then, you know, for, uh, for, you know, the listeners out there, you know, we, we created a mural board and in there we started to create. You know, wonder from, you know, if you look back on that and I have a several times, you know, we shared, you know, things about our values, you know, who we were, um, you know, our skills, our competence, how we see the, you know, how we see the world, how we see the business opportunities, how we see X, how we, and, and it became morphed into this kind of like wonderland of craziness of lots of stuff on there.
[00:17:38] But if you go back over it, it's a story, it's a journey, actually, it's really interesting. And then from that, we started to creating, we started ideating, like how could we structure, how could we create, how could we maybe build some kind of value proposition? Um, who's our target group? How are we going to bring, you know, all these things that we started to build out.
[00:17:56] And I just want to honor that work because I think what we, where we started was not in the business. We started with the human. And I think that to me, that's the cool one. So, because the business is business. We're, we're, we're too smart people, we're adults. We're going to create a business. And that's, that's a byproduct of who we are as people, as humans.
[00:18:20] And, uh, I think also for, um, I think for us to dare to be brave, to really open up and be very honest about who we were, are, and, you know, and. I just think, Phil, it was, it created such a lovely, organic, open, very natural feeling of coming together and, um, to then put our effort and energy into then creating impact in the world.
[00:18:47] So, um, I want to honor that, do the work. The alignment piece was wicked. Really good. Yeah.
[00:18:53] Shani: It really was. Yeah. Good one. I like that. It was a really good process. And actually I have some, I have one to, to build on that or like to build on the alignment. Uh, I wrote, and I'll explain how this is together. I wrote, you need less than you think.
[00:19:16] I think, um,
[00:19:19] Steve: that's brilliant.
[00:19:21] Shani: Um. Yes, you need a lot of alignment. I think alignment was the key piece and alignment on what we wanted to achieve, not in terms of business goals, but in terms of how we wanted to make a difference in some way. And when you have that clarity of direction, the clarity of what it is that you want to create, then there's always this balance between choosing the structures that will save you time versus.
[00:19:52] Is it actually going to take us more time to maintain all of these structures and all of these tools and all of these things and ideas and especially being two people, right? It can look really attractive to have lots of things set up, but is it worth it in the moment? And of course, as things change and as we interact with more people and as we work together with more people, then we will have to make different choices.
[00:20:16] But actually, that was one thing that struck me. And also as Uh, in the last year has been, I've been diving back down into, to more self led structures and looking at that. And, and I think it also attaches to the thing of control. We sometimes think we need a lot of structure to move forward and actually we need more alignment.
[00:20:38] To move forward. And trust. And when we have that, and we know that here are both you and I, we're both going in the same direction, we have aligned on what's a priority right now, we are two smart people, then there's like this, this, uh, scale of, When it's worth it to create structure around it and when there's not, uh, actually kind of a case for it.
[00:21:04] So yeah, I think, and we've been there a lot and we've re evaluated along the way as well. And, and, uh, that's all as it should be in the process. But, um. Yeah, there's something about keeping it minimal as well.
[00:21:18] Steve: Yeah, agree. I, I, I'm going to build on that actually, uh, which is also my, uh, I think it's my fourth actually.
[00:21:26] Yeah. This is my fourth. So this is, um, when you talk about moving forward. Which is really interesting. Uh, and this goes for also people in HR teams, I think specifically, and actually organizations in general, but I'm going to talk, you know, about all, you know, our target group and, and, and the people we, we want to and do work with, um, but I think moving forward, interesting, and I think what we've, what we've done, and I think what the learning that I've taken is.
[00:22:01] Just move forward. Right. So actually stop talking, less talk and more action. So I wrote down iteration is my, is one of mine and you know, it's, it's not about the silver bullet and the big solutions and, and the demands of the business often require big solutions and big impact and you know, the, the strategic directions and the.
[00:22:27] The people pillars and all of these things tend to be big and cumbersome. So I think for me, it's like how you create the journey towards that by just taking what I like to call pigeon steps. A little pigeon step, test it, iterate on it. Um, and you know, an example for us where I think. Has gone down really, really well.
[00:22:49] We, we created the employee experience canvas, which started as a, as a, as a kind of a model that you, you very much had in your mind, these kind of four, four quadrants of, you know, the more holistic EX experience. Uh, and then it was like, okay, what, how do we, how do we. How do we help people get started with EX?
[00:23:08] And maybe this could be something for people to converge around humans or a particular employee group and to understand what the boosters and blockers relating to the different quadrants. And for me, that process. Was brilliant because, you know, we create, and then we tested, we spoke to, went out and spoke to people.
[00:23:29] We iterated on it and then we went back out and then we test again. And then it's gone out now for, and it's still not over finished. It's version 1. 0 in terms of it, getting out into the external. Open source, go for it, use it as you want to. But I just think there was a moment in Stockholm, uh, where we had 10 people in the room.
[00:23:51] And I was just from all different companies and I was just stood there going, wow, this is so cool. Okay. We bribed them with breakfast. So that's one thing, but there's kind of a, no, but there's kind of a thing where there's like 10 humans have come together with an interest on this thing and we're iterating this together and, um, and they're giving us their most valued thing, which is their time.
[00:24:10] And I think for me, just. Remember, just remember that when it's a smaller thing, when you make it small and consumable, then it's not as imposing on others. So you can, you know, invite others in to come and experiment with you in little short bursts and just iterate with it. It's less, you know, it. It's just easier for people to get to engage with rather than it being half day workshops or one day things.
[00:24:36] It's just, hey, let's have an hour and a half. Let's just jam on this. We're going to learn a bunch of stuff along the way. Um, so I think like bite size iterate is something we've done and we continue and will continue to do. Um, because before you know it, those little bite sizes don't add up very quickly and then all of a sudden you have more, a more complete product or solution to something to then put out into the world or inside, inside an organization.
[00:25:02] So, um, I think that's something which I've, I've not just. learn and applied more in this context. But I also think going back to the human context, it's like, just unlock the power of humans. Everybody, like everybody's got to just unlock people. They have so much to give. Uh, so I think having an iterative process to things enables that to unlock that creativity in people and for people to feel heard.
[00:25:30] It's amazing.
[00:25:32] Shani: I love that. Uh, it definitely resonates and I just remember so many times we sit in front of something we go, okay, what gets, what just one step will get us over the threshold and get the ball rolling and get us started on this. And definitely from what I've seen throughout my career, kind of inside of corporations, we quite often build this big thing.
[00:25:54] We want to create and then we kind of get a little bit paralyzed with how do we do it? How do we create this thing for 20, 000 people or 90, 000 people? Well, you don't start by creating it for maybe 10 or 20 or 100 or however many are available to you in that moment and test it out to make sure that when it gets to everyone, it's is actually relevant, impactful, serving the right purpose, not not made on on a guessing on a guessing game.
[00:26:23] I love that. And actually, so my, my fourth one builds on that. And it's really simple. People want to help, you just have to ask.
[00:26:39] And I think that fits in slides into that kind of Process of iteration process of of doing things of doing new things when you're on a journey to create something whether you're like us or or you're doing it internally in a company if you find the right format and as you're saying it's a pigeon step it's not a huge commitment most people do have something to say do have ideas do have a desire to be part of something.
[00:27:08] And all you have to do is ask.
[00:27:10] Steve: I do agree. Well, just look at, just look at the people we've connected with in the last year. And the collaborators that we've made and the connections we've made from the U. S. to Denmark to Spain to Portugal to, I mean, it's Germany to, I mean, it's Netherlands. I mean, it's just.
[00:27:29] It's crazy. Um, and yeah, just, just asking people like, yeah, it's, and also inside your business, I mean, again, just goes back to the first one, listening, um, putting assumptions aside, I engage people, um, they have more to give than, than we, um. than we sometimes recognize. So it's, yeah, it's a good thing. Very good.
[00:27:49] Shani: It's a good thing. Yeah. I think, yeah, it also ties in exactly as you say with the listening and with the, with the letting go of our assumptions and letting go of our desire to do things as we want them to be. Cause I also think that engaging people, whether it is for help or whether it is for co creation or for something else in the process also forces us to To make peace with, this is how I would have liked to solve it.
[00:28:22] Well, it's not really relevant how you want to solve it. It's relevant if the solution that is being created works and serves the purpose that it should and needs to serve. Um, and it's often one of the hardest parts, especially when we are engaged and committed to something. Um, definitely going back on and just letting go.
[00:28:44] And I think, I mean, we've even done this in our creative process. What if it's like this? And then we go, actually, let's put the question out. Yeah, quite often we like spin forward and we go on this and this and okay, but this is all assumptions. Let's go back and just ask the question. And then you find, you find treasures on the way.
[00:29:06] Steve: For those listening, Shani's really good at questions. You love a good question. I love a good question. Sometimes you go, Oh, that's a good question. I'm like, yeah, I love that. Great. Okay. You love a good question. You're very curious like that.
[00:29:18] Shani: I make, I make notes. I like it when it hits the right spot and I like it when it gets a little bit uncomfortable as well.
[00:29:25] Then, then I do a take away as we call it in this house. Sometimes you don't have to answer. Yeah, then you get to take the questions away and come back and let that, let it sit. Um,
[00:29:37] Steve: yeah. So my, my, my, my future challenge is how do I get those notes that you, uh, write down into our, into our new CRM that's coming in after the summer.
[00:29:46] That
[00:29:46] Shani: is going to be
[00:29:47] Steve: really hard. That's going to be a year two reflection. Oh my god. Right, Sharni, let's start with CRM, from analogue to CRM. Um, yeah, it's going to be, uh, yeah, it's going to be interesting. That's going to
[00:29:59] Shani: be a very tough one for me, I, I, I foresee. Yeah. That's good. Habits. Habits. I might need some support,
[00:30:06] Steve: yeah.
[00:30:07] Habits, I'm here for you, you know that. Um, okay, my, uh, I'm going to, my last one is actually more of a reflection. Now, today, on looking back, and I think there's a few things for me, I'm going to kind of fold a couple of things in this. Number one, we chose a brilliant name. Yes! Honestly, it's, we've had so much, I've had so much good feedback on Wanda.
[00:30:36] Honestly, it's, everyone, people have just been like, that's such a great name, such a great name. And then I think also with the House of Wanda that's coming up in September, I think it's going to be amazing. And I think for us. The potential of how we can evolve the wonder, uh, brand, what it's meaning and it's different ways we can impact and bring value to the industry.
[00:30:58] I think it's really, really interesting. Um, but I, I also just want to add onto this is that, you know, we've created something it's year one and also, you know, we're positioning ourself and getting up every day, committed to this thing, but also. This commitment to ex employee experience, more human, human centricity, these kind of words, buzzwords, whatever you want to call them.
[00:31:20] But I need to reinforce the fact that employee experience is not a buzzword. It is here to stay. It's happening. Um, i'm seeing, I mean we're talking, I mean I was talking to a company in Canada and they're creating an internal ex design practice or have done it's creating amazing value inside organization, inside the organization.
[00:31:41] and This is a movement, it's a mindset, then it's a methodology. And I, you know, I would like to kind of pre forties, uh, I like to kind of think my career was first half of my career was in this customer experience industry, albeit in the context of recruitment and talent acquisition, but I was in amongst that industry itself and that growth in the two thousands.
[00:32:07] And. Now I'm in the EX side, which is the, you know, it's the same coin, but different sides. I, I just see it as a privilege. I, I, I, I'm just like, wow, I know I, you know, for me, I want to look back on my career and where have I created impact. And I think right now it's such a privilege to be in an industry that's at the real beginning, early stage of growth and development and opportunity.
[00:32:35] In a time that's where we are being completely disrupted, whether it's the AI or whether it's organizational structures, how we work, the ways of working, where we work, all of these things. And we're right here right now with an EX design business in this moment. So for me, I'm just, it's a privilege and, um, yeah, really excited to see what we can create and what impact and value we can create for people.
[00:33:02] So that's my, I'd say that's my last one as a more reflective piece of what we're creating, our journey we're on and then where the market is right now. I mean, it's like a hockey stick potential. Um, so I, I'm, yeah, it's amazing. Absolutely amazing.
[00:33:19] Shani: My last one is. Maybe a bigger observation on just the more human piece.
[00:33:26] Love it. Go. Um, yeah, of course I would do that. Of course you would. Of course I would. Um, I think one thing that has really been evident to me And I think especially in the last few months is that while we can all look at like structures around us and the way companies are set up and think, Oh, they're kind of set up in a way that infantilizes people and dehumanizes people.
[00:33:59] I also noticed that they, it's not just that, it's just that we also dehumanize ourselves in those structures. So it comes back actually to my first points. I think that As much as structures can, you know, be extremely positive, or it can be otherwise, I've seen and hear a lot of stories of how people step into the workplace, and they forget that they themselves are human.
[00:34:30] And when you ask people of the difference of how you relate to something on your spare time versus, There can be oceans between those approaches, but it's the same person. So, yeah, I wanted to ground back into this, to the more human, which is kind of become our tagline in a way and, and what we're really moving towards and, and that within the space of work.
[00:34:57] And. Yeah, I've, uh, that's a question I've been sitting with in what ways do I go to work and we don't have any structures, right? We have all the options. So all of this is things that I have learned throughout my career of how I should treat myself in relation to working. And there's a lot of. Putting yourself aside in that and,
[00:35:27] Steve: um, yeah.
[00:35:29] But, but, but just to add into that, I think that's what we're seeing is that there's a requirement to not just seek from the perspective of the company. It's now, you know, we're like, these are the questions and things that we've been involved with this year. It's like, what does, what does the workplace look like from the perspective of an employee now?
[00:35:48] Right. So from their perspective, cause it's always been get people back to the office and these kinds of questions. I mean, that's one of the biggest challenges that we're seeing. Uh, but is it a challenge we're making it a challenge? It's just, it is what it is. And maybe actually that question is coming from the perspective of the company, the CEO, the leadership.
[00:36:07] But maybe we flip that narrative and flip those questions to the other side and what, and actually from the more holistic employee lens. Where does the workplace now fit in side of the wider thing? Cause it's not a bigger segment, big slices as big a slice anymore. It's a smaller slice. So it requires people to listen, to understand, to seek perspective, to seek needs, wants, desires, all of these things in order to shape with them for them.
[00:36:35] That's good for them and the business rather exclusively the business because it's always been in a captive environment. That's just one example. So I think like, yeah, I mean, I fully, fully support that. And what does that mean for people to be more human where they're at at any given moment? Um, and maybe actually being at home and spending time with their Children and having lunch with their partner.
[00:36:57] During the pandemic, I mean, everybody was sitting down having lunch every day and, you know, and making connections again as families and new experiences and just getting more time together and realizing, Oh, my God, actually, this is this is more important. Um, so it should be. Um, so yeah, I Yeah, it's, it's so complex yet so simple at the same time.
[00:37:18] Yeah,
[00:37:18] Shani: it is. I, I was struck with this, like how we so much believe when we go to work that we should be working as machines and we keep feeling like we let, I mean, I've, I've had that. It's been one of the things that I've had to, and I'm still making peace with is, is accepting. that energy is not an even currency and you know that you need to be very mindful of those things and yet when you step into the role of work then all of a sudden that's an expectation for example um so yeah I think there's two sides to that uh but there's always an opportunity to at the very least if you can't change a structure start with looking at How am I using and stepping into these spaces with my own humanness?
[00:38:06] Whatever that means to, to us can mean very different things. Um, that's, there's always that imitation.
[00:38:13] Steve: Yeah. Seek a coach is my advice. Uh, okay. So, so that's 10 lessons. That was good! And you know what? Genuinely, we did that completely separate. And, uh, it was really nice that it built, built, very much built, built on each other, which is great.
[00:38:28] Very, very symptomatic and very, uh, consistent of, um, how we've worked in the first year. I think also as well, I mean, some of the, some of the audience out there might be thinking, hang on a minute, I didn't know you two work together. Um, they might only know us as co hosts of the Experience Designers, but also we do, we do work together and we do have a separate brand because we, I don't know, it, well, it started two and a half years ago and one that was a year ago, uh, that was just.
[00:38:54] A by product, but, um, no, I think, um, yeah, tiny by products, but no, I, I mean, look, we, it's a separate thing and, um, we just wanted to, I think this is probably something we're going to continue to share out. I think we want to document our journey a little bit more and be a bit more, not a bit more, just transparent on our journey and put it out there.
[00:39:14] Um, you know, um. Not only around how we're experiencing our business, uh, on what we're creating, but also as well, what we're seeing in the industry. I think people would be interested to hear like what we see. Uh, so let's look at how we can, um, yeah, continue doing that.
[00:39:29] Shani: Yeah. And also I want to, whoever's listening so far, extend an invitation to you also to share your own lessons on what it means to be more.
[00:39:39] human, uh, within the space of, of life and work. And what have you learned? What, what things have you challenged? What, what lessons have you had? Um, what good experiences? We would also love to hear what you learn so that we can co create together.
[00:39:58] Steve: Definitely. Definitely. Well, thank you all for listening.
[00:40:03] Thank you. Thank you. Um, yeah, and have a good day and we'll see you on the next podcast.