Donnacadh O'Briain: Why Live Theatre Is the Next Evolution of Organisational Training

[00:00:00] Steve: Donnacadh, welcome to the experienced designers. [00:00:03] Donnacadh: Thank you very much. [00:00:04] Steve: It's an absolute pleasure. Um, thanks for making this happen today. Um, where are we right now? Where are we sitting? We're in Finchley in North [00:00:10] London. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know Finchley well? Um, I know Finchley a little. I live quite near, I live near hit near here in, uh, crouch End, which you know very well. [00:00:20] I know very well. Uh, just, just to the photo of Alexandra Palace. [00:00:23] Yes. [00:00:24] Donnacadh: Uh, the People's Palace and, uh, yeah, we come here a little bit. There's a nice, um, there's Art Depot, a nice little theater. Nice little theater around here. There [00:00:31] Steve: is, and also Crouch End. North London is fame for, uh, creative Yes. And actors, actresses, and theater. [00:00:40] Yeah. Um, I know you, you went on a, on a rollercoaster ride in the theater world and obviously honed your skills, developed your skills, produce some amazing shows that obviously award-winning shows. How would you encapsulate that period of your career? Um, what are some of the kind of the, [00:01:00] the, the key kind of highlights of that period for you? [00:01:03] Donnacadh: Yeah. Um, well I guess it's about a 20 year period really. Yeah. So it's a big old period of time. I mean, it's certainly roller coaster's a good way of putting it for sure. It's a great way of putting it, you know, bumpy. Um. Came to London, you know, there was periods where I didn't have any work. There's periods where I was signing on, you know, I was kind of just trying to get the council to pay my rent just to kind of get by and taking, trying to get free work, just trying to get it, trying to get anything, trying to get a foothold in a, in a new city. [00:01:35] So I was in, trained as an actor in Dublin and started directing in Dublin and then moved here. [00:01:39] Steve: Yeah. [00:01:40] Donnacadh: Um, so just trying to get a foothold, trying to figure out what the scene was and, um. Trying to survive financially. So there was a lot of that in the early days in the first, but I was quite lucky as well. [00:01:50] I was quite young when I got my first job at the Royal Shakespeare Company as an assistant director. So that was a kind of an aim of mine. Um, so I was about 23 ish [00:02:00] when I started working there and, and, and ended up doing 10 shows there across three years. So that was a pretty pivotal, that was probably after. [00:02:07] Actor training, kind of starting to direct. That was probably the next kind of big thing that happened as I, yeah, I landed up in Stratford. Yeah. [00:02:14] Steve: And then what was kind of, what, what did that give you, that kind of springboard then to kind of do, once you kind of get, because ultimately that Yeah. That struggle to get that first win, uh, that first kind of opportunity. [00:02:24] Yeah. What was, what followed after that? [00:02:27] Donnacadh: Well, again, it's interesting, you know, I think. It's a peculiar career, you know, and I think I've realized how peculiar it is more so having kind of stepped side, stepped a little bit, you know, in my, in my own, what I do myself and, and, and met a broader range of people with different careers. [00:02:40] But, but, uh, what was interesting about working at, at the RIC was it was three years of regular money. And big productions and, um, got to work on some, some really iconic productions. When I was there, um, with Michael Boyd, who was the artistic director at the time, I was his assistant director for two and a half [00:03:00] years. [00:03:00] We did eight shows together and it, it was amazing. But also I left there, uh, 26 years old. Um, having just spent three years working on the biggest shows in the country. [00:03:13] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:03:14] Donnacadh: Um, and I wanted to direct, I wanted to get out there and I wanted to direct some big shows. Yeah. But I was 26. I was 26. And also, and, and you know, I'd, I'd been assisting for three years, so I hadn't been putting work out there. [00:03:26] And it was a bit of a, you know, there was a bit of a crash course in, in, um, in that you've, you've gotta get out there and prove yourself. Yeah. You know, you've gotta get out there and make your name. It's not, it's. That body of work was significant, but nothing is handed to you in the theater industry. [00:03:44] Nothing. I wish it were, but nothing is ever handed. So I had to go and I had to go and make work. So for the next five or six years, I made my own productions. I set up a production company. I found plays that I wanted to do. I, I went and I got funding. I got [00:04:00] philanthropy, I got backers. Um, people like Lady Sainsbury of Turville, um, who I met in Stratford was a, was a real, real, real, um, a great background across a couple of projects. [00:04:10] Fat Boy Slim came in on one thing, provided all the sound kit when I created a new venue called Peep in Edinburgh. Um, and, you know, he just, just hustled. Hustled, yeah. Found money, found resources, found collaborators, and it was a gr it was a great period for creativity because it was all new work. It was all new plays or new work that I was commissioning or that I'd found. [00:04:31] Um, so very creative, but yeah. [00:04:36] Steve: And so, I mean, that 16-year-old that you described is definitely shining through, but on a, on a whole different level without a doubt. Um, how, just for those that haven't worked in theater, um, what's the chaos? [00:04:53] Donnacadh: Um, I think. There's a few different kinds of chaos. The chaos when you are, when [00:05:00] you're making it, is the chaos you love. [00:05:02] Um, in what way? You know, pe I guess people who work in the events industry would probably connect with that as well, or any kinda live events industry. This the, the actual making, um, and the kind of getting something up on its feet and then getting it to that opening night is, um, is a kind of frenetic madness. [00:05:19] But it's, it's, but it's so full of fuel as well. You're fueled by the, the possibility. You know, I think it, what's interesting about the theater industry is that any show, and I had the privilege of a couple of shows. This being the case with, but any show can be the next big thing, any show. Mm-hmm. So in a sense, you know, across the, whatever, I dunno, 80, 80, 90 productions I worked on across my career, there's maybe the director on 60 of them. [00:05:44] Every single time you're in there and you're making it and you're thinking, if I get this right. This is the one, this could be the one. And you know, most of the time you're, you're wrong. Just like any kind of, you know mm-hmm. In a sense, every single show you do is a startup and [00:06:00] 95% of startups fail. Right. [00:06:01] So, so, or you know, not fail, I mean, but just not become the big thing. Yeah. Um, [00:06:06] Steve: yeah. [00:06:07] Donnacadh: And, uh, so when it does happen that something really kind of, you know, something really takes off, it's, it's, it is magical. Um, and you know, you get this kind of bubble of, of success that comes along every now and again and kind of sweeps you up and takes you somewhere else, but, but the, yeah, the, the being that the matters of being in and doing it is a beautiful place. [00:06:28] Yeah. Um, yeah. [00:06:30] Steve: So describe to us, just describe to us 'cause of this, uh, of the moments of the success, when it did, when it did go off and when it did accelerate. Um, describe that. [00:06:44] Donnacadh: Um, yeah, well, I guess the, the, yeah, I mean, there's a, a few different times and on different scales, you know? Mm-hmm. Because obviously you get different, of course, like when you're at, when you're at, at a certain age or a certain time, you know? [00:06:57] Uh. I won Best director at the [00:07:00] Irish Student Drama Awards when I was 20. And that was like the best thing that ever happened to you in my life, you know? And it, and it was, and I still, you know, when somebody asks like, what was the kind of the peak of your career? Like emotionally? The biggest moment? It might've been that one. [00:07:13] You know, because, 'cause I'd come from nowhere. I'd come from nowhere at that point, you know? Mm-hmm. And I knew nothing, and I'd kind of found my way to that. But, um, so, you know, there are different kind of peaks, uh, which are, which are less headline friendly, but, um. Yeah, I did a show, a show called Rotterdam In 20, I think we started in 2012, maybe 20 13, 20 14. [00:07:36] 2015. Um, 2014. I found the play. Yeah, I found the script in a pile of scripts. Um, at the theater 5 0 3, it was a new writing theater in, in Bater Sea. I found the script and I loved it. And it made me cry the first time I read it. And then the first time I read it out loud, which was shortly later, it made me cry again. [00:07:58] And it made me laugh out [00:08:00] loud. It made me cry and laugh out loud. Um, and, uh, I've rarely had such a strong immediate impact to a script. Um, and. I decided that I was gonna do that show. Um, and there was an actor I was working with at the time, we'd been looking for something to do together, uh, called Alice McCarthy. [00:08:20] And, and, uh, and this was, she had the same experience of going, wow, this is the one, this is the one. And so I'd got in touch with John Bri, who wrote it, and, um. We talked about it and he, he was really keen for me to do it. He knew my work as well at that point. He'd seen productions, I directed. And, uh, and we'd both, we didn't know each other, but we kind of happened across each other in, in a few different contexts. [00:08:42] Um, anyway, that that play, we, we put that play on. We found the money, we put it together. My friends Louie and Brian Har, who run a company called Heart Hook, who run the arts theater, they came in as producers. Um, and uh, yeah, it opened and it was very successful when it first opened in a small theater, a 60 [00:09:00] 70 seat theater in Baller Sea. [00:09:01] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:09:01] Donnacadh: Um, it was a kind of an instant hit, really in a very small scale. Um, from there. We got picked up to go into the Algar Studios in the West End, which they had a small a hundred seat theater, so went in there. We also got booked to go off Broadway from that initial run. And then that run in the west end of the Ragger Studios, uh, allowed us to be nominated for Olivier Awards, which we in no way expected. [00:09:29] Steve: Wow. [00:09:29] Donnacadh: But we got nominated. Um, for outstanding achievement in an affiliate theater. Mm-hmm. Which is the award basically, which covers pretty much any, anything that happens in the theaters, which are under 300 seats. Can can be, can be. And there's a lot, and there's a lot of them. There's a lot of them. Yeah. [00:09:45] There's a, there's a lot more, you know, and it's an, yeah. There's a lot more stuff Yeah. That's eligible for that award. Yeah. Than let's say, you know, best comedy, which is maybe seven shows in, in, in any given year. Five, six shows. So yeah, it's a, it's a nice one to be nominated [00:10:00] for. Um, and, uh, it's, you know, it's the plucky upstart Award. [00:10:03] Um. But we got nominated for that and yeah, we won it. So, you know, we all showed up in our Glad Rags to the Royal Elaborate Hole. Um, and, um, when they, you know, they read out the nominations and they read out Rotterdam, and we all lost our expletive. Amazing. How's [00:10:21] Steve: that, looking back on that moment, how, how would you, how did you, how would you describe that now? [00:10:27] Looking back with on reflection and going, having gone through some, a bit of a journey and a transition yourself, which we'll cover, but I'll just, yeah, just curious to see how you've, has, has there been a shift to that? How you view that moment or that moment? [00:10:40] Donnacadh: The moment, the winning moment? Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm very, I'm very grateful for it. [00:10:46] I feel very lucky to have been able to get into that position and, you know, very lucky to have won the award. You know, there will have been loads of other great. Projects and great shows. Um, I think one of the reasons we won was it [00:11:00] was, so it was 2016, I guess we were in the West end and it was the, so we went into the West end after we won the Olivier. [00:11:06] We had to run the West End, but be before that in the. TGA Studios. We were the first show in the West End with a trans protagonist. And so there was a, there was a, there was politics and social politics, and there was, um, there was a new story we were bringing. I mean, again, not new, nothing is new in that sense, but it was, it was, it was, it was quite early in the conversation around that trans visibility. [00:11:27] Yeah. And, and that kind of, that, that, that aspect of. The kind of the, the language, the dialogue within the queer community and awareness around that. So we re and, and it was a romcom. That is the other thing to say it, it was a romcom. It wasn't a tragedy. It wasn't awful. Nobody got killed in the end. Um, it was a really funny, really touching, poignant play and people, people laugh, people cried. [00:11:52] Yes. Um, and it was very accessible. Um, and I think. I think that was part of its success, but so yeah. So I, I feel lucky that I, I [00:12:00] happened to cross that. I feel lucky that we, you know, we, we hit the zeitgeist as well. Um, [00:12:04] Steve: how, how did your skill evolve and your MA mastery of. Theater directorship. Yeah. And process for yourself. [00:12:14] Um, but I'm just curious, like what's some of the, what if you kind of had to put them into certain buckets or overriding kind of Yeah. Skill sets or areas. What would you, how would you, how would you categorize those? [00:12:26] Donnacadh: Yeah, good question. Um, how would I categorize this? I think, um. So one of, I, I used to run a class called Preparation and Instinct. [00:12:36] Mm-hmm. Which we might, we might touch on, on again later. And, and so the, the kind of, the idea of that class is that, and this is an acting class originally, but it totally applies to what I do at, at work as well and what a lot of other people might do, um, that, uh. That in, in order to be able to work on instinct, which is the, that's the beautiful thing, right? [00:12:58] What you call it, flow state or whatever. Mm. [00:13:00] In order to be able to work on instinct, which in, you know, it's a wonderful thing to be in because you, you have complete trust in yourself. You know, you're, you're, you're playing, you're working, you're adapting. It's incredibly agile state to be in. It's very adaptive. [00:13:13] Yeah. It's very, very thinking and feeling, and you can, you can make huge strides when you can find yourself in that kind of creative flow. If and if there's other people involved at the same time, you know, real magic can happen and which is kind of what the rehearsal room is like. [00:13:27] Steve: Yeah. [00:13:28] Donnacadh: Um, but in order to be able to do that, you have, there is preparation that makes that possible. [00:13:34] It, it's not a magic trick. It's not an aptitude that you just have. [00:13:39] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:13:39] Donnacadh: I mean, yes, there is an aptitude and there's a certain, uh, there's a certain aptitude in practice in allowing yourself to go into that space where you are just doing Yeah. Where you're just in action. You're not self-conscious. [00:13:51] You're just doing that. That's a, that is a kind of a skill, but that's a skill that comes through practice. You can't just. You know, you can't just pick it up. Mm. That's a practiced skill, [00:14:00] but it's not, that's not worth very much if the prep is not there. And obviously one part of the prep is your experience. [00:14:07] So, you know, you're the, the thousands and thousands and thousands of little moments you've navigated and noticed and, and got through in your work, um, that, that happen. They help you. They help you in that moment. You know, you're pro that you're, they're all in there, you know, you're processing. But the other part of the preparation is the preparation for the specific project, and that's about, that's the preparation of relationships. [00:14:28] The people you prep, you know, in order to be in a state of real collaboration with somebody, like that's precious. And it's, it's not for free. It doesn't happen easily. No. Again, some people more than others, it might happen. It might come quickly with some people and not quickly with others. But either way it takes work and it takes maintenance, um, and it takes care and consideration. [00:14:49] So there's preparation of relationships, there's preparation of the material. And your relationship to the material, building a relationship for yourself with the material. Um, [00:14:58] Steve: yeah, you talked about [00:15:00] space there, like Yeah. But I just want to anchor in like holding space for either from a, a preparation perspective. [00:15:07] Yeah. But also like creating, I guess space is also as a, as a director or creating space, you're creating a culture, you're creating an expectation, uh, you're interacting with people, um, and you're guiding people. With and through. Yeah. In order to produce something for the audience. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that spoke. [00:15:23] 'cause I think that's such an, I think, well how I perceive you sharing this, like such an important element. How, how did you create that? [00:15:32] Donnacadh: Yeah. It's hugely important. It's hugely important and the theater is a great training for that because the only way it gets made is by a lot of people in a room working together for the same. [00:15:44] For the same goal. Yeah. And that's not an easy thing to do. And when it's not working, it's not fun at all. Right. A lot of people in a room, uh, and it's not working is tough. Mm-hmm. Um, so as a [00:16:00] director, you are the kind of defacto, you know, chairman of the room in a sense, chairperson of the room. Um, and, uh. [00:16:09] Michael Boyd, who I worked with in Stratford for a long time, um, he said that, you know, that his style of directing was a kind of, it was kind of a benevolent dictatorship, which I think is an interesting way of putting it. That, that, that it is a dictatorship in the sense that there is a figurehead. [00:16:22] Steve: Mm-hmm. But [00:16:22] Donnacadh: it's. But, but the benevolence is also key. It's not, it's not a figurehead that looks to get in the way or assert itself all the time. It's, it's, it's a, it's an agile often, sometimes quiet, sometimes very present. Um, sometimes very, but always very watchful, very attentive presence. Um, well, I love that. [00:16:41] Yeah, I love that. But, but also it's important that people know who's in charge. It, it it in, in that sense, in that, in that, in that context. And I think that's the case in a lot of organizations. But there's some, there is a relaxation that happens when it's clear who's, that there is somebody in charge. [00:16:55] Steve: Yes. [00:16:55] Donnacadh: Um, how you, you, the person in charge can ruin all of [00:17:00] that by how they lead. Mm-hmm. Uh, or they can, or they can harness all of that by how they lead. Um, and so, yeah, I have been, you know. Uh, for, for, you know, in my 10,000 hours really. Managing rooms of people to try and get us all to move in the same direction. [00:17:18] And that is my favorite skillset that I've learned. And I, I don't think you can't just come across that it takes time. Yeah. Um, and I love doing it. Um, one of the reasons I love doing it, I think, is because it is so knife edge and it's, we as people, we're much more accustomed to being in rooms where it's not. [00:17:37] Totally. And especially in a work context. Yeah. We're much more accustomed to being in rooms where it's not totally comfortable and you're not at ease and it's not actually that safe. And yeah, over, over those years, I've, I've built up a skillset for, for finding ways to make those spaces safe and creative and engaging and, and with a real sense of purpose. [00:17:58] Um, and I love [00:18:00] bringing that to groups because it is on it, it is an, it's, it's not something that. That everyone's able to do, I suppose. So I enjoy doing that and I feel like it, it's useful. Yes. [00:18:11] Steve: What must it be like having directed and prepared, and then of course, as a director, you kind of, you're moving into a pure observer role during a show. [00:18:20] Mm-hmm. Is that correct? You? Yeah. Yeah. So what's, what's that feeling like? 'cause then you're relinquishing. [00:18:28] Donnacadh: Yeah. [00:18:29] Steve: I would say the word control. But you're relinquishing trust onto, onto the cast to deliver. Yeah. This amazing show that's been curated and Yeah. Put together. What's that feeling like? [00:18:39] Donnacadh: Yeah. Um, I mean, yeah, it, it's varied over time. [00:18:45] I mean, when I started directing, um, I would. Be sitting in the audience mouthing all the lines along, you know, kind of kicking every ball, you know, is the nice in, in the way in the football management metaphor, you know, heading every, every corner. Um, I [00:19:00] came from acting, so that was kind of natural. I was, I was kind of in every, it's also how I directed initially. [00:19:04] Um, I. I felt my way into every moment. I mean, I would be, sometimes I would be there, you know, in the rehearsal space or on the set before the actors were there, and I'd be walking through stuff. I'd be testing out movements or, or shapes or certain bits of staging, just to feel them myself, just to feel them in my own body to get a sense of them. [00:19:21] But, so I guess that's, so there's, yeah, there's that part of it. Um, but yeah, letting go is tough. I mean, I've, um, yeah, you're powerless. I mean, directing, there's an awful lot of watching and directing. So the idea of sitting there watching. And being silent and just being attentive, that in itself is, is absolutely normal. [00:19:40] Um, again, that's, that's a key part of the skillset. The ability to, to have the stamina to watch and listen with a very high level of attention and recall for up to two, up to two, up to two or three hours. With a notebook, but you know, up to two or three hours. That's a key part of the skillset. And I remember when I [00:20:00] started directing, I remember I didn't have the stamina for that. [00:20:02] I would, I would, this thing would happen where I would, I would note the first half of the show, and then in the second half of the show there'd be like seven notes. First of the show, I'd have like an hour of notes. Second half I'd have, you know, half a page. Interesting. And it, it took me years to, to build up the stamina, to be able to, to be fully attentive for the whole thing. [00:20:23] Steve: Yeah. [00:20:24] Donnacadh: Um, but yeah, the letting go is tough. I mean, I, I remember actually funnily enough, sitting in, in, in the theater in the West End. Uh, watching Rotterdam's Terrible Risk. So embarrassing. Such an embarrassing story. But I was watching Rotterdam in the West End and I got, I mean, this was probably, we're probably a hundred, a hundred over a hundred shows into the run. [00:20:44] Uh, the, I'd seen the show, you know, I mean, I hadn't seen all the product, the performances, of course, but I'd seen a lot of times it was, this was the third or fourth, the fourth venue we, the show had lived in. The arts Theater, uh, in, in, um, kinda near Leicester Square. And, uh, there was a moment [00:21:00] where, where one of the actresses, there's a key moment in the show, big cl emotional climax, where the protagonist kind of, something massive happens to them and they come in, they come through a door at the back of the stage and we see them for the first time in this, in this, in this particular way. [00:21:16] And it just should, it should just knock you out emotionally. It's just a knockout moment. And we had this. Brilliant soundtrack going on the same time. And it was this kind of movement sequence that happened building up this climax. And one of the actresses, um, who'd been in the show from the beginning, sometimes she would not be far enough across the stage so that when the, the protagonist came through the door, we all saw them sometimes. [00:21:45] She, we just wouldn't quite get past the door. So when the president, she, and then she'd be standing in front of the person at the big climactic moment. And this used to drive me up the wall. And, um, you know, some people, some people, you know, you give them a, you know, a, a good instruction like that makes [00:22:00] sense that, that, where they're like, yeah, that makes sense. [00:22:02] They get that and then they do it. And then you, you probably never have to come back to it again. And some people, you have to say the same thing multiple times in different ways, and in the hope that the next way you find to say it's gonna be the one that fixes it. And as a director you have to take responsibility for that. [00:22:17] You have to kind of go, it's my fault. I haven't found the way yet. I haven't found the way of putting it that is making this thing happen. But anyway, in, in that moment in, in the show, I think I was sitting up in the circle and I think I shouted something. Nobody could hear me. 'cause the, again, the music was so loud, but nobody would've heard me. [00:22:36] I think I shouted, get out of the something way. Um, and I, I, it never, I've never done it before or, or since. And I only did it, I think because I knew the, like the sound system was really high at that point. Mm-hmm. And there was no, I was sitting next to the designer, but there was no audience, other audience members too close to us. [00:22:55] So that tells you a little bit about sometimes how it feels when you, when you have to hand everything over. But, [00:23:00] um, but you know, it's not a, it's not a proud moment. I mean, you know, your, your job. Your job as the leader in that, in that production, you fun. Your, your job is, is that when you walk away and you sit down the auditorium, your job is that everybody under in your team is absolutely ready and prepared, and it's your job to make sure they are. [00:23:21] Yeah. You know, it's, that's, that's, that's your responsibility. If, if you are, if you are genuinely not sure how it's gonna go on that opening night, then you haven't done your job well enough. [00:23:30] Steve: Yeah. [00:23:31] Donnacadh: You should know. And of course there are variables. It's live theater. It's live, live events, everything. Things are gonna change. [00:23:36] And, but that's part of it. You've also got to make sure you've prepped your team with enough agility to roll with, with, with whatever random thing happens to happen on the night, you know? Yeah. Because stuff goes wrong. So [00:23:49] Steve: if I. If I walked into your life around about the time when your theater career was coming to an end, what, what [00:24:00] would I, what would I see? [00:24:02] What, what, what kind of Yeah. Behaviors, uh, emotion, um, moment would I be entering into Danica's life at that point? [00:24:12] Donnacadh: Well, um, it was a great period in many ways. Uh. So about three years. We're talking about three years ago. So I'm about 40 basically approaching four. Around and knocking around 40. Yeah. Which I guess is, maybe that's part of it, right? [00:24:26] The kind of certain thing of going, well, I hit another decade marker. Um, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a midlife last. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, yeah, I, I, I had this, I had this, this moment, which a lot of parents will connect with. It's astonishing. That took me till 40 in a way. But, uh, I just decided, I decided that I, I needed to work less. [00:24:52] I had to work less, and I needed to earn more. Um, and another thing, another thing happened around, [00:25:00] there'd been a growing thought over the previous five years or so, of course, probably between, you know, Olivia and the West End, all that stuff. And, um, oh yeah. And, and that point, um, which was a sense of having done it. [00:25:13] And, and, and it, it wasn't a, a self-congratulatory sense of I did it. Um, there, it was a kind of a, a kind of a, having a word with myself, sense of going, you know, what were the things you wanted to achieve when you were a kid? You were, you're 17, 18 years old. You're thinking, I'm gonna go into the theater. [00:25:32] I'm gonna be a theater director. I'm gonna move to London. I'm gonna try and get work at the Rush Shakespeare Company. You know, what did you want to achieve? What did, what was, what's the climax? What's the, mm-hmm. What are you achieving? And, and of course it's a complicated bunch of things. I mean, certainly getting to be re getting to the point where I was good was pretty big on the list. [00:25:51] Yeah. Getting to the point where people recognized that ability was, was high on the list. You know, little, little ego thing I guess, but [00:26:00] basically. The, the, the word I had with myself in a way, and as a kind word I had for myself, was to kind of go, look, you've won Olivier, you've had sh you've had, you, you've, you've had your work in the West End. [00:26:11] You've di you've worked at the Royal Shakespeare Company, you've directed for the Royal Shakespeare Company. You've made nearly a hundred productions. Maybe you've done it, maybe you did it, maybe you did it. The thing, you know? [00:26:23] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:26:25] Donnacadh: You spent 20 years getting really good at this thing. Maybe you did it, maybe you don't have, how many productions do you need to direct another a hundred? [00:26:33] You know, it goes 200, another 50, another, another 30. You know how many more productions. It's healthy. And I think I just kind of thought, well actually, do you know what, I don't, I don't know if I need to direct that many more productions at all. Uh, and I still, uh, yeah. And that, that's, that's. That was a big moment. [00:26:55] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:26:55] Donnacadh: Um, and that, you know, led to this, this question of, okay, well, well [00:27:00] then what am I gonna do? What do I want to do? [00:27:02] Steve: Yeah. Um. So I, I mean, I love that. I mean, it, this is, I mean, this is super interesting 'cause I think for, for anybody, you know, looking to transition and to utilize their skill sets, but in new ways, but that's quite a big jump for, for many. [00:27:16] Or, you know, there's a journey that you have to go on. So I love that kind of curiosity lens. Hmm. Where, where did you start to kind of find a footing and a direction? Where did things start to then? You start to find a bit more of a footing in, oh, hang on a minute. There's something here. Um, to, well, yeah, to take the second step or the third step. [00:27:34] Donnacadh: I think I found [00:27:35] Steve: several. Cool. Yeah, I [00:27:37] Donnacadh: found several. I think that was, and that's partly, I guess that's suits me. Yeah. Uh, I like. I like a, I'm a kind of a, I'm a natural portfolio career type of person. I, I like a range of things and I've always been freelance and I've always worked on multiple projects at the same time, so I'm very used to juggling, um, and I like deadlines, [00:28:00] uh, so it suits me quite well. [00:28:01] So it's nat quite natural with me. So, so I guess, you know, I, I found basically wherever I found yield, I, I kept moving and, and most of the time when I kept moving. In the places where I found, where I kept finding more yield, more interest, more connections, um, more logic to me being in those spaces. And, and then people, you know, 'cause you then you start to find people and actually people are what really, that's what it really comes down to. [00:28:28] You find a person who you connect with and you start to build a relationship. You trust each other and you wanna try something. Right? So that's, so I started finding that, finding those things. And I found those things in, in, uh. You know, again, I've, I've trained actors, directors, and writers my whole career, and I, I'm interested in education, so I found that in learning and development, in corporate learning and development, I found this space. [00:28:50] Because I've done so much facilitation of spaces and groups, that was very easy for me to think about group dynamics and making work for groups, creating whatever, workshops, whatever words you want to [00:29:00] use, sessions, experiences. That was very natural for me to design those and run those. Um. But actually I was, but actually I met people who recognized that I was bringing a lens and coming from a perspective, which was really unusual and could be very useful for the right client. [00:29:16] Um, and I found yield in the attractions industry. It got totally different. Yes. Um, and I started, I, I was the. The creative director, uh, initially and now consulting creative director and narrative designer on a, on an immersive indoor Peppa pig themed kind of world play world for kids, which I was writing when my kids are very small, which is gonna open in the spring in the uk. [00:29:38] So, you know, completely different, right? Yeah. Completely different. Yeah. But a, but actually not so much. A lot of shared skill are lost shared processes. Um, next year I'm hopefully working on a horror attraction, you know, so, so not always just kid stuff. Um, and then, and then also there was, I didn't, I didn't abandon everything as well. [00:29:55] Right. So I also, you know, something I've loved doing as well, [00:30:00] um, as I'm, I was saying to this, to you the other day, 'cause I've been working, I'm working on one right now, is, is doing narrative diagnostics. So. Um, which, which I have. I have done four startups around brand and brand identity. Uh, most of the time I'm doing it on a script or a, or a creative project. [00:30:17] Um, so right now I'm working on a musical, uh, for a client who I did worked on another musical for a year ago. And I basically do a kind of a deep dive into the work. I do a kind of a McKinsey on it and I interview people and I figure out. What do, what are we trying to make here? What is it? What's, what's, what's at the heart of it? [00:30:34] Where's the fire? Where's the passion? What have we got to say? And then how's it being said at the moment? How is it being, where is the success in how this is being said? Where are the story beats that are really working? Where, where is it falling down? Where are we losing interest? Where is the, you know, where, where's the success and the failures in the current draft? [00:30:54] I love doing that. And when, you know, when a company as, as with this one, when they are willing to kind of invest enough. [00:31:00] And it's not a load of time, but like, invest enough for me to give like a week, let's say, a solid, you know, seven days over, over a month or two to do that. Um, it, I can be incredibly thorough and kind of bring, bring my, bring kind of my whole. [00:31:15] Experience to it. Um, and so I've, so I've been doing, I've been also doing that, you know, that, which brought me out to LA last year. And, uh, you know, there's been some fun stuff in that. And again, so the, so there's yield there, you know, yeah. These, these different places. But I'm, that's normal for me. Yeah. [00:31:29] 'cause I've always been freelance. I've always had to kind of go, that's a job. I'll take that. Yeah, I'll take that job. Yeah. Go on then. You know, I've always had to do it. Um, so that's not new. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm able to be Hoosier than I used to be, which is nice. Um, and I genuinely like all of the different things I'm doing. [00:31:48] Um, and, and 'cause joy is key. Of course, joy is incredibly important. It ha it ha you have to find a way of enjoying it. That's not to say you're gonna enjoy everything. There's moments in projects which are difficult and things are hard and, [00:32:00] but, um, and you can't always be driven by joy. I think at the moment I am finding, and I don't know if that's, maybe it's to do with how I approached this kind of new career phase. [00:32:11] May, maybe, maybe curiosity includes joy implicitly. [00:32:15] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:32:16] Donnacadh: I dunno. Mm-hmm. Because if I was led by curiosity. The thing with curiosity, you are gonna lean further into something that just tickles you or connects with you. Agree, or gives you a bit of a fiz, right? Yeah. You, you're gonna be less curious when something leaves you cold. [00:32:29] Yeah. So, so maybe there's something about the kinda that kind curiosity approach which has led to these different directions. And there's other ones as well, which I Yeah. [00:32:35] Steve: Go tell us a little bit more about the, the, the, the, the corporate project and what that was about and the context and the work there. [00:32:44] Donnacadh: So it was, it was for, um, yeah, I got approached by a company called Thompson Harrison, a learning and development company who I've gone on to work with, with more since, and I have more work going on with them. They've been, I love working with them. Uh, it's run by, by two, two women, Sam and [00:33:00] Tracy. Uh, very experienced, super smart, um, great to work with. [00:33:05] Um, hi Sam Tracy. Um, and, uh, they approached me, but they didn't know me. I was recommended, um, by someone they'd worked with. Um, they, they had this idea with a, with a big insurance company client of theirs. They had this idea. They were, they were trying to figure out what their big leadership. Leadership program would be for that year. [00:33:23] They'd done four, I think three or four in the past for this company once a year. Big project. Um, they often involve the whole company, which is 500 staff. They've got, again, big contractors as well. But the, the, the core companies relatively, um, lean, um. And they could, they weren't kind of, you know, everything was getting rejected. [00:33:41] Everything was a, no, I don't think that's right. Or we've done that before. Or I, and for some reason somebody in these meetings before I got involved had the mad idea that maybe they could do an immersive project. And for some reason, the, the, the kind of senior team there kind of went, oh, that's interesting. [00:33:58] What would that be? [00:34:00] And of course, you know, Sam and Tracy, to some extent were like. I don't know. Well, let's find out. Yes. Yeah. So they, uh, so luckily for me, luckily for me, um, and perhaps for them, uh, they, they ended up with me on the phone. Um, uh, I was, this is a very unusual image, but it was a nice moment. [00:34:20] I was in the garden of, um, I was in Gary's garden. In the valley, in, in la In LA Watching, watching Tiny Hummingbirds. Oh, lovely. Flying around his flowers. As I first spoke to Tracy about this project, um, it was a love, it was a nice moment, you know, a nice moment of things kind of aligning. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, I don't often get to spend time in, in gardens in LA with hummingbirds, but it was, I did that, that was my week. [00:34:42] Um. And, uh, they wanted, yeah, they wanted to make some, they wanted to kind of decide this idea of something immersive, and it was very vague at that point. Mm-hmm. So I started working on it and, and the first thing I wanted to do was get as much information as I want, as I could, kind of on the client and what they wanted. [00:34:59] And, and, you know, [00:35:00] people, agencies, companies can often be very protective about the relationship with the client. And, but I'm, I'm glad to say in this case, I was allowed to meet the client pretty early on. Um, and that was really vital. 'cause I couldn't, I, there was so little I could do in a way, until I got a feel for who they were and what they needed. [00:35:16] Um, I came up with this idea that we would put them inside a show. So, um, yeah, we would put them inside a show and they would be participants. Um, and we, we would do 30, um. 30 of the participants at a time. We'd have a cast of, I was, I pushed for quite a big number of casts. So we ended up, I think with. [00:35:41] Eight or 10, I think, can't quite remember which, maybe eight. But we quite a big cast, so quite a big in the ratio of like, you know, eight or eight or 10 actors to 30 people is a great ratio for making this kind of work. Um, so, and then we ran through a couple different concepts and what we, what we settled on was, was that, um, we were gonna put them [00:36:00] into a docking company, uh, in. [00:36:04] Uh, in the, in the late 1930s. So it was Hoxton. We, we, we rented Hoxton Docks, this amazing building in Hoxton for, for, for a month. We had it. [00:36:13] Steve: Yeah. [00:36:14] Donnacadh: Um, we made the show in there quite quickly. Um, I've obviously been writing it for the RB years, two or three months, but the kind of the, the end, the, the kind of final, like getting it made thing happened quite fast. [00:36:24] Um, but I've got six days rehearsals, which is very short Yeah. In, in my experience. I mean, other people would be like, well, you had six days, you know, I mean, obviously in the invent industry, that's a huge amount of time. Yeah. Uh, for me it was pretty short, but I've got better at working on short, short time scales in the last few years. [00:36:40] Um, and, uh, so yeah, so it was a, it was a working doc. Dock company, um, 1938 with all these characters who worked there. And our role as, as participants was to get in there and we were casual workers for the day. That was the kind of concept. And then obviously it was a learning project. It was a, it was a leadership project. [00:36:57] So fundamentally what the piece was about [00:37:00] was, was complex interpersonal, uh, moments, um, difficult conversations, um, and. And the challenge was to, was to, the challenge was kind of was about organizational health in, in a sense, so the challenge of the participants was, was to notice issues of organizational health within the company. [00:37:22] You were interesting. A casual worker in [00:37:24] Steve: Interesting. [00:37:24] Donnacadh: And then, and then we created situations where they had to step in and. We created this, like, this kind of freeze thing, like the kids play, right? Where they just kind of like cut their hands in this, they, they stop, stop live. So we had this kind of freeze thing where we would, the action was stopped and we had these three characters. [00:37:42] We called 'em the Morgan Freemans. But anyway, it's, I won't go into the detail of that, but anyway, it relates to, you know, um, uh, the short tank redemption and our town of the play ring in like 1910 or something. Um, but, uh. They had, they had a guide character with them the whole time. Uh, who was kind of their [00:38:00] person who was with them, but that character was kind of from the world of the thing, but also kind of knew who they were. [00:38:04] So kind of a middle place person. Um, and that person could stop time. And so we, we would see these problems unfold and then we would stop time and then we would. They started to be able to talk to the characters about what was going on and really try and get to the bottom of what the problem was. And then they, and then we started, we created these situations where they would strategize in small groups about what the person could do, and then they would have to kinda advise the person on how they might approach the problem. [00:38:29] And then we created these situations again, this is all quite fast moving. Yeah. You know, basically, for example. The person's having a problem with the boss because there's a communication problem. They're really keen to progress in a certain way, and that the boss just isn't hearing it. So we're talking, we go away, we think about it. [00:38:45] We, we come out, we give the person advice about how they could approach it. And then like after two minutes of giving that person advice, the boss happens to walk past and then it's like, go. So we created these, these kind of quite reflective moments. Yes. And then, and then shit just [00:39:00] happened. [00:39:00] Steve: So you kinda had this kind of situation they observed and it's then the freezing time for them to reflect, to discuss, and then they, then you move them quickly into an action of doing really quick. [00:39:10] Yeah. [00:39:10] Donnacadh: The, the results. Amazing. Yeah. The results, they, they, they give, they gave advice, they gave strategic advice, and then the quality of the advice, the quality of communication. Because, you know, great advice is one thing. If the person isn't able to hear it because you dunno how to say it to them. [00:39:24] Steve: Yeah. [00:39:25] Donnacadh: Or you've been ignoring all kinds of triggers about how they're feeling right now, then it's not gonna help them very much so. So there was a real direct cause and effect about their strategy. [00:39:34] Steve: Hmm. [00:39:35] Donnacadh: There was no kind of, it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, it's very easy to be theoretical about solving problems a hundred percent. [00:39:39] So that was what we tried to do. [00:39:41] Steve: So, um, 1920s, is that [00:39:43] Donnacadh: right? 1938. 38 you said? Yeah. Just a, yeah. Kind of a And how [00:39:46] Steve: did you, how did you immerse people into that, into that time and space? [00:39:51] Donnacadh: Yeah, I mean, first of all, the venue was, is a hundred is, was, was over a hundred years old. So, and it's, it's in its original form. [00:39:58] So, um, it, it was [00:40:00] the, the whole venue was this period specific warehouse, brick, big brick and metal, and huge shutters with these big revolving things. So, so we, you know, we, um, we spent. A chunk of budget on getting a brilliant space, which absolutely worked. Yeah. Um, and then there was sound design, there was lighting design and then obviously all the actors were, were costumed and in roll. [00:40:22] And, and, and of course I I, there was a script which was, which I had to really kind of work on to kind of get that kind of language, just that the linguistic form of London in the late thirties, which is a great language to work in actually. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I needed to. There's quite a lot of homework, quite a lot of, like, how would they say that? [00:40:39] Which I had to do to figure out it took time. [00:40:42] Steve: How did the, how did the, so if 30 30 were going through at any given time Yeah. How long did it take to get the whole company through? [00:40:50] Donnacadh: Um, so the show was an hour and a half. Yeah. And then after the show, there was an one one hour debrief, so, so it was 30 per half day? [00:40:57] Yeah. So I think we did 18, maybe 18 performances. So [00:41:00] what was going over, over two and a half weeks. So [00:41:01] Steve: what was going on in the business while people were going through. 'cause obviously not some people are gonna be in the second week having half the company gone through the first. A lot of chat A lot. [00:41:11] Yeah. Must have created a real buzz buzz in that. I mean that's, there really was, yeah. You must have been a really interesting Absolutely. Moment. Yeah. [00:41:18] Donnacadh: I mean after, even after the first day. Because the CEO came on the first day, which was nice. Thanks. Great. Thanks for showing up on the first, very first performance. [00:41:25] Nothing, nothing to worry about. Um, so the CEO came on the first day. O obviously the kind of chief HR officer came on the, I mean, she'd been involved through the whole thing. Yes. So that wasn't just, she's lovely and was really supportive and wasn't scary, but there was a lot of, you know, important people on day one. [00:41:40] Um, and as soon as we did the first performance, like the Slack channel was, it was all over the Slack channel back at work, so. [00:41:48] Steve: Mm-hmm. [00:41:48] Donnacadh: So. Pretty much from, from day two onwards, people were coming with a, with, with an even more level of like, what is this? You know, we've heard, but, but also we, we asked people not to take, not to say too much. [00:41:59] Yeah, [00:42:00] yeah, that's good. We asked them not to say too much, so there was a real buzz around it, but also there was like a, what is it? What's gonna happen? Can't tell you what's going. They just, they told me it was really cool, but they also told me they weren't allowed to say. So, you know, we, there was this kind of mystery as well. [00:42:13] Amazing. Um, and it's gone, you know, it's gone on to, you know, it's, it still has, it's had big impact, you know, they, um, it's had real impact. And, and you know, a few months ago we did a follow up project, a sm an offshoot project. Instead of the full 500, we worked with about 120, uh, just in a week. And I, I took some of the characters, well, and this was their suggestion, but I took some of the characters from that project, brought them into this world, the kind of world of now and then we did this whole kind of three hour session around, specifically around feedback. [00:42:46] Mm-hmm. Around kind. Around how good feedback works, what the, what the context is for good feedback. But again, is a com is about communication, is about difficult conversations. So very much a taking a, taking one of the key themes from that bigger project and making [00:43:00] it into a more detailed session, which was just for the, the a hundred most senior people at the company. [00:43:04] Um, really digging down into that, into one aspect. So yeah, and it, and it, it was a real compliment obviously for them to come back and say. A, we want to follow up and b, we want to follow up, which is, which literally takes something from that show and, and, and develops it. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah, it was nice for us. [00:43:21] That's good to get, to go back into that world, but also to feel like, [00:43:24] Steve: and I think, I think this is, this is, this is such a great example of. A bringing together and really, again, just we've gone on this journey with you today of your career and the skills and what you've, what, how you've been evolving. But I think also like the power of immersion, the power of experiential design and intentionality in now a context where organizations are required or you know, there's a need to transform and change and accelerate that in a quick way and bring people with them in a meaningful way with, I think quite. [00:43:58] I think quite old school [00:44:00] learning and development techniques. Yeah. Um, they're trying to, you know, still do it with micro content or, you know, l and d different journeys and et cetera, or training formats. So I, I think, I think to create profound shift requires. Profound experiences. I think particularly when you're bringing people through these experiences together. [00:44:18] Galvanizes doesn't it, it creates an interaction between the groups. Um, what you, what do you think is the potential for this kind of work as we as, as the, as the, as the world gets even faster? Uh, dare I say, and, and also for corporations that perhaps are struggling or have struggled to make any meaningful shifts in, in, in their organization. [00:44:37] Where do you think the opportunities lie with, with using. The theatrical immersion and experiential. Yeah. [00:44:44] Donnacadh: Well I think, I think of the, the theatrical side of it. I think of, I think of that as a, as a tool. Yeah. Um, maybe, 'cause I've worked in it for a long time. It's easier for me to see it like that. Um, I. [00:44:56] Uh, so I think in that particular instance, you know, we [00:45:00] used a theatrical environment and the idea of immersion because we wanted to, we wanted something that was really high impact. We wanted something they'd never seen before and they hadn't ever seen anything like it before. Neither had I, neither those of us working on it hadn't really. [00:45:12] Steve: Yeah. [00:45:13] Donnacadh: Um. I think what's interesting about that particular company is that they didn't invest in this because, because it's not going well. They invest in this because it's going well. Oh, that's amazing. They're, they're doing, they're doing great. [00:45:27] Steve: I love it. Like they, [00:45:27] Donnacadh: they've just hit some really good targets in the last two years. [00:45:30] They've just had a, uh, anyway, they've just had a whole couple of whole things they're doing really well. Um. As a company and their investment in this is not about fixing problems. It's about harnessing, harnessing where they're at, and keep, keep building, keep momentum, keep. Keep those, keep those bonds strong. [00:45:50] Not get complace about lack of complacency. Actually, it's about not getting complacent just because we, just because we had a great five years, that doesn't mean we're gonna have a great next five years. Let's, [00:46:00] let's, how do we keep communication, keep connection strong, particularly in a time where people are fundamentally, it is harder for people to stay connected. [00:46:09] I think, you know, you know a lot of what's happening at the moment in the corporate sector. From the US to here is everyone back in the office four days a week? You know, there's a big movement on that right now. There is. And that's, you know, well, well, whatever. My, I don't work in that context, so I don't get to have an opinion on that. [00:46:25] That's not for me to say. But, um, what I do know for a fact is that that's gonna, that's gonna ruffle a lot of feathers. It's gonna make, that's gonna be hard for a lot of people. That's the kind of, that's the, the stick end of, uh, of, you know, getting your team. Working and firing. I think what I've been doing in this, in this kind of context, what, and what people like Thompson Harris have been doing is, is this, is, is gathering people together in a way which doesn't feel forced or, um, or one sided, you know, they, they come back, come back to the office [00:47:00] for four days, is slightly one-sided edict, you know, the people who don't want to do that because they've got caring responsibilities being one of the most. [00:47:07] The biggest parts of it are geography ish, you know, geography or whatever. Like those people, it's, it's real, it's gonna be a real challenge for those people, um, to bring, to bring people together. In shorter bursts for a day or for a couple of days, um, to really kind of connect that, that can do a lot more, that can do a lot more for the company, for connections, for communications than forcing everyone to come back into the city of London for four days a week. [00:47:33] But anyway, again, agree. That may be, there may be, there are other positives to people being in the same building. Of course there are, there are positives. There are people that really suits as well. But, um. It's there, there is a lack of, there's, there's an intentionality about that in terms of business. [00:47:47] There's not a very, the intentionality in terms of, in terms of the kind human experience of work is, is, is not so strong. Um, there, there are other ways of. Building those connections. Um, [00:48:00] they just need, and I think that's where experience design can, can, can be, can make a real difference. Um, yeah. And then, and then obviously for those companies, uh, and there are many, many of those companies who aren't bringing everyone back to the office or who just, that's just not their business model. [00:48:13] Then the kind of the art and the skill and the value of gathering is huge. Yes. Um, you know, we were, we were saying, we were chatting before we started recording and this, this, that, um. You can. If there's someone in the company who's just brilliant at that, brilliant at bringing people together, connecting people, getting people to communicate, to talk, to open up, then fantastic. [00:48:37] Like, let that person do that. Like what an asset to have a person like that. If you don't have a person like that in the company, but you recognize how important it is, then again you've got a couple of options. You can outsource that and if you can find the right company, the right relationship to a person or a group or whatever, then hugely useful. [00:48:55] Steve: Um. So Donnacadh, I just wanna ask you just a, a, a closing question if I may. [00:49:00] Um, after everything kind of we've shared and gone through today, is there anything like you're still wrestling with, um, just in terms of anything, any, any curiosity or areas that you're still being curious about right now? [00:49:16] Donnacadh: Wow, there's loads of things, really. [00:49:18] Um, God, yeah. The more, the more, the further I go in this kind of career transition, the more things. There are on the list of things that I find fascinating, that I want to know more about. Interesting. Um, um, again, this thing about gathering is a word. I, I wouldn't, I have not used a lot until more recently. [00:49:38] I think the skill of how you gather people is huge, um, important. So, yeah, for me, I think that's something I'm, I'm interested in seeing what more there is for me in that direction. Again, that was kind of new for me. Um. Because I have so much experience in facilitation and of, of really leading people, um, that I'm, I'm really interested to know what, if you take [00:50:00] that away, how can you, how can you create this environment where people, there is intentionality, people are being led to some extent, but actually the feeling that's not how it feels. [00:50:10] It feels like there's an, there's an, it, it's, um, it feels like there's a lot of autonomy. Yeah. And a lot of space. Yeah. Um. I think that's a bigger design challenge than just leading it. [00:50:23] Steve: Agree. [00:50:23] Donnacadh: Um, and so that's a challenge I quite want to take up. [00:50:26] Steve: Amazing. Amazing. Well, Don, thank you so much. Um, it's been a pleasure to walk through your life pretty much today. [00:50:34] Mm-hmm. Um, and I hope it just, you know, the intention really for us today was definitely obviously to share out that moments of transition and I think there's a lot of people out there who are going through lots of transitions right now, and I think, uh. I think there's a lot of really good like advice and insight into Yeah, especially about, be curious and to, yeah, keep, keep, keep unraveling and keep exploring. [00:50:55] Particularly if you're in that kind of phase right now, you're in that transitional phase. I think it's a really, some [00:51:00] really good advice that you've shared today and uh, and of course, uh, the wonderful power of experiential and uh, and this work that, um, this important work that this brings. So, look, thank you so much. [00:51:12] True experience designer. Thank you. And uh, thanks so much. Thanks. Thank you.