The Death of Vanilla: Why Physical Retail Experiences are Failing

Season 4 Episode #2 Ghalia === [00:00:00] Steve: Ghalia, welcome to the experienced designers. [00:00:03] Ghalia: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. [00:00:05] Steve: So let's just share with the audience where is here. [00:00:10] Ghalia: So 104.fr. [00:00:13] Steve: Pronounced correctly. [00:00:14] Ghalia: So we are in the 19th around this mall of Paris, and it's a beautiful space that has been converted and we're exploring it all to ourselves today. [00:00:24] Steve: We are. We only deliver the best experiences for our guests. This is A-A-V-I-P experience exactly all to ourself in the background. We have lots of kind of activity cleaning and the preparations for the, for when the door's opening later today. So very much, and of course, we're. Beyond grateful for the hospitality here for us to allow us to do this today. [00:00:45] So it's been amazing. So look, today I'm super excited because you work in a field that is going through extraordinary change. It's another industry that we believe on the show here that is, has so much potential and opportunity. But of [00:01:00] course, to cross that kind of river of change is gonna be tough. [00:01:04] For some, it's gonna be a real challenge, but also huge opportunities exist as well. So I just want to kind of open with a bit of a question is that everybody listening to this has had an experience in a retail store. We go in and outta them. We've got, we've gone in stores for many years and they've kind of evolved to a point. [00:01:24] But we've been to thousands of them and yet, to be honest, a lot of them are very vanilla and don't leave a, I guess, an internal emotional impact in many respects, or leave us with a memorable moment or a memorable experience. So I really just wanted to ask you just from your perspective, like why is physical retail still failing to give us a reason to actually leave the house? [00:01:44] And to, for it to be a destination for us to enjoy an experience. [00:01:48] Ghalia: Oh my God. This has been a debate for the past four or five years. We have been saying that physical retail is dead. People don't want to get out of the [00:02:00] house and somehow it's true, but on the other hand, it's not so true. We still see that physical retail exists. [00:02:07] People go out because they need to go out. But then e-commerce also exists. And it's substituting a lot of the needs of consumers to fulfill basic purchases that they want or they need for the day. So now why do people go out? It's because they want something different, something new, something adding onto their day. [00:02:32] Hence having a beautiful impacting experience. Something to remember. And on the other hand, they might need other types of experiences that are very much functional and helping them go through their day without any complications. So is physical retail actually? Delivering that need to us. And if so, how is it delivering it? [00:02:56] So the real question lies not in the [00:03:00] experience itself, but in the result that this experience is having over our. Perception, initial perception and voila, whether it's serving or not the purpose. [00:03:11] Steve: Yeah. Can we just lift up on a macro level for a moment, because obviously I know good old COVID and that period completely disrupted everything for many industries. [00:03:19] So let's honor that for a moment as well, where that really drove obviously a lot of digital and online. Which naturally, so that pendulum swung this way. I think we all attest to that. We've experienced that and then there's kind of this kind of slow, kind of, kind of coming back, isn't it really? [00:03:34] But actually then it's still. My perception currently is that so much of retail still remains the same, so therefore is it enticing enough for people as people want to come back into physical retail? Is it enough? Are organizations and brands doing enough to entice people back in? [00:03:51] Ghalia: I think as you said during COVID, we have stretched the spectrum of retail from. [00:03:57] Ultra physical to ultra digital. Yeah. And [00:04:00] then we've explored that there are lots of potential into digital, however, not many then managed to blend in that ultra digital into the physical. So now I believe that on that spectrum we. Several types of retail very much categorized. Some of them hyperphysical, some of them still digital, and some who have managed to really understand holistic management or omnichannel. [00:04:27] And we'll be talking maybe about that later on. Have created a beautiful experience blending both of the worlds. Now, I think that at a certain point physical retail has been in much need of reinvention. We still need physical retail because people want to go out, they want to experience and live something new and unique and physical would give us lots of opportunities, whether access to a product or access to service or experience. [00:04:58] However, to what [00:05:00] extent this physical retail destination is relevant today. And how, to what extent is it relevant to the consumers who are acquainting those locations? I think the question lies in here, not in the physical space itself, but what is that space serving and to whom is it serving that. [00:05:19] Experience or [00:05:20] Steve: purpose. Yeah. My mind goes to the jobs to be done framework. [00:05:24] Ghalia: Yeah. You [00:05:25] Steve: know, what job is that customer trying to get done and how does that physical space serve that? What opportunities exist in that to stretch that? I think [00:05:32] Ghalia: there has been also this vulgar term around experience and experience has to always be mind blowing. [00:05:39] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:05:41] Ghalia: We have to go back to basics. There is a utilitarian experience and there is a holistic experience, agreed. One, very much related to the census and the other, very much related to, let's say, a technical part of what I want to do and how I need it to be done. So imagine you have a lunch break of half [00:06:00] an hour going from your desk down. [00:06:03] Going out of the street, reaching that supermarket next door and grabbing a sandwich does not have to be a hassle. So did the retailer next door in a busy office area, think about the best way of displaying those sandwiches, salads, and cookies and the bottles of water for the customer to just grab and go. [00:06:23] Yes. And how easily can he grab and go without losing his lunch break? Yes. So this is. A beautiful experience and it could be always positive and renovated if it has been done well and the customer appreciate it, but it's super utilitarian. It's functional. Yes. And it delivers something positive. [00:06:43] And on the other hand, on a Saturday when I have time, when I wanna go out with my little ones, with my family, with my friends, I just wanna explore something. Are you giving me the opportunity to explore, to take time, to stretch myself, to [00:07:00] lose myself in this space? And would this holistic experience add something meaningful to my going out? [00:07:07] I think these two questions are really important and should be grounded in my initial choices. [00:07:13] Steve: Yeah, that's super interesting. I, there's this also something, as you just shared, there's something that came to mind. What can we learn from also places like culturally? Because I find that the Middle East, for an example, what you're describing there is. [00:07:30] Quite cultural to the Middle East, particularly around a destination. They don't go shopping. They go for as a social it's very ingrained in their culture, isn't it? Yeah, it's very different. In Japan, for an example, it's very ceremonial. It's very I think it's very experienced living in its own way as well. [00:07:47] So what can we kind of extract in some of these kind of cultures as well that we can bring to, to the mix in other areas. [00:07:53] Ghalia: So it's interesting to put it that way. I have done a study, if it makes sense, a couple of no, [00:08:00] maybe a couple of decades ago. Oh my God. [00:08:02] Steve: Yeah. Wow. [00:08:02] Ghalia: Exploring how people from the Middle East would perceive their experience in a pop-up store versus how people from Europe would ex were perceive that experience. [00:08:14] And it turns out in that study that people in the Middle East go out because it's a social outing. We wanna explore something new with our friends. We wanna take pictures, selfies, post them and say that we have been there and we have done that experience. And on the other hand, people in Europe would go and explore it because they're exploring something new, discovering a new brand. [00:08:37] However, it would also be an opportunity maybe to purchase some new products from that brand. Yes. So the visit would be the same naturally, but the purpose would be very much different. This would lead us to this question related to culture and space. If I go and acquaint a space, what purpose would it have and [00:09:00] would that space create a certain meaning? [00:09:02] So if I come to that location every time, would I explore something new and would it always. Come back to my mind that if I come here, I would discover something new because I've done it several times. Yeah. Or if I go to another location next to a cultural site, would I also have a nice time exploring people, eating out, having a drink, doing some shopping? [00:09:27] I mean, what is the meaning that I can extract? And I think that retail. Is very similar in a way or another because it has its own playbook and standards. However, the application should be very much led into the local aspect. Yeah. Such as in Asia, middle East, or in Europe or North America. [00:09:47] Steve: Yeah. I love that. [00:09:49] I love that you're using the word meaning a lot and I think that. In the work and the field of experience design that the different kind of hierarchies and the different yeah, the hierarchy of different experiences [00:10:00] and obviously there's memorable and meaningful experiences. And I guess, I guess that kind of element around meaning how have you seen or what have you seen in that field of brands developing something that. [00:10:11] Is more meaningful that perhaps does reach inside of people in some way to create that internal connection and meaning inside of that individual. What have you seen in that field that, that work that could be worth sharing? [00:10:24] Ghalia: It's interesting to talk about what did I see? Because maybe other people would see things differently. [00:10:29] Steve: Differently. A hundred percent. [00:10:30] Ghalia: But as a customer. And as a retailer I always live the discrepancy between what I criticize from a critical point of view and what I live, and therefore I always search for that meaning. But it's interesting. [00:10:46] Steve: Hang on. [00:10:47] Ghalia: Yeah. [00:10:50] Steve: It is back underneath. Okay. [00:10:51] Ghalia: Yeah, it's okay. [00:10:55] Steve: Yeah. Hopefully switching off.[00:11:00] [00:11:00] I'll go back to meaning. Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:09] Steve: I think he's done [00:11:10] Ghalia: setting back meaning what did I, what was right meaning, yeah, I was giving the example of, or well, we [00:11:18] Steve: can dive into meaning I can phrase it slightly differently around meaning. Yeah. Yeah. So what are brands doing to create more meaning in their experie meaning? So, so I love that you've used the word meaning on several occasions there. [00:11:29] In the experience design field, we're designing not only memorable experiences, but also intentionally about creating more meaning in that for individuals. And of course, it's. Any experience it's the through the eyes of the person and what they experience and how they interpret the moment. [00:11:43] But also as well, like how do you, how are organizations thinking about how are brands thinking about creating more meaning inside of people and what are they using to leverage that? [00:11:52] Ghalia: I think people have had enough of talk, but not do. I love that. [00:11:59] Steve: [00:12:00] Definitely. [00:12:00] Ghalia: So, so we've been talking a lot about storytelling. [00:12:04] And this is essential in any brand. It's part of the brand's bundle of variable communications and storytelling is at the very essence of any brand. [00:12:15] Steve: Agree, [00:12:15] Ghalia: shouldn't. You be able to story tell. It doesn't mean that you do not exist and you would be similar to any commodity that exists today. [00:12:26] Yes. So we're talking really about a brand now. There's also another variable that is adding complication, which is the availability of the product. Any person today could take any product and replicate it and sell it. So am I today purchasing a product or purchasing the story behind the product. [00:12:49] That's why lots of luxury brands have been investing in that. Heritage area. Like I wanna tell you why my bag or my product is better. It's because there is this [00:13:00] history, there is this know-how, there is this story, there is this family behind it. Okay. And then we're saying all of this is good, but I want proof. [00:13:08] Yeah. So brand started giving us opportunities to live. The stories that they are providing to us, and they are also providing all of this into a new retail format, a physical format, allowing us to get in touch with the brand. [00:13:26] Steve: Yeah. [00:13:27] Ghalia: So if you have noticed for the past several years, many brands have been creating a sort of museum. [00:13:33] Come explore my history, see what I have been doing, look at all the evidence, touch it, explore it, et cetera. Yeah. More of the brands have also provided through that storytelling, a living proof. Look at how the ladies work in our at. Yeah. Endure, for example, have done it. Louis Viton has been doing all of these exhibitions. [00:13:56] And if I might also bring [00:14:00] on a new brand who has opened a flagship store at the Rizzi and at the basement have created a museum. It takes you through the stages of production. That's why dear customer, my bag costs as much. That's why you need to be doing this to get the bag or this is what you are getting when you're purchasing my bag. [00:14:21] So all of these instances are really interesting because they allow the customer to get in touch with the brand, to see the brand authentically and to live for a fact and have a proof of everything that has been said. [00:14:36] Steve: Yes. [00:14:37] Ghalia: Interesting, right? Yes. [00:14:39] Steve: Way more interesting than some products on a shelf. [00:14:41] Ghalia: Exactly. [00:14:42] Steve: I'm gonna just share one and again, this is an example right now that I'm sharing this very burnt memory that I have in my mind, in my brain of this amazing experience that I had that was completely unexpected. With George Jensen the jewelry company in Copenhagen. I was actually buying. [00:14:57] Nina a a ring. But [00:15:00] I had an opportunity from a meeting which is more of a business meeting, and I went to the hq, which is the original beautiful building, and as you walked in on the left side, there was this huge glass window. And as you looked in. There's all the smithies working and actually all still to this day, and these are like skill sets, which they're trying to recruit for, which takes a decade to get up to, a good level of a Smithy. [00:15:22] Yeah. But then I got the opportunity to go upstairs to the attic where their library is, and in the library is all of the history and the old books, like this huge book, which they opened up and I had this privilege of spending time. Yeah. Yeah. And the storytelling, yeah. Was just. Beyond. [00:15:37] Ghalia: And would you go elsewhere to purchase now your probably not. [00:15:40] No, because I, ' [00:15:41] Steve: cause I know that the quality, it's handcrafted. Everything is handcrafted. Exactly. And also they honor the creative. Particularly, there was some beautiful stories of women creatives back in the old days where it wasn't. Perceived to be good, to be creative. Yeah, just counterculture stuff and that's the stuff that's the juice that [00:16:00] I think brands have. [00:16:01] Yeah. Particularly legacy ones to really kind of bring that out in a really unique way. [00:16:05] Ghalia: And I see you talking about it and it has touched you in a way, and I think this is. The result that brands should seek. [00:16:13] Steve: Yes. [00:16:13] Ghalia: You remember all of those details. They are meaningful and the brand did not do an effort to just over advertise it. [00:16:21] It has been naturally integrated within the brand's experience as part of it as, as part of its story. Know-how This is what we do. Yes. We're not reinventing the wheel, we're just showing you as a proof what we do. [00:16:34] Steve: Yeah. Yeah. Are we moving into a further kind of. I don't wanna call it kind of golden age, but are we moving into a phase of. [00:16:43] Ex, like really exploring story, living rather than storytelling, even story doing to a certain degree. We're seeing Netflix right now. You can now live now in Netflix house. You can go and live the experience of Stranger Things. Yeah. Rather than a 2D, on a screen. So I'm just curious on, on that, around this kind [00:17:00] of story, living and this co-creation, this interaction that brands could and now could have with customers. [00:17:07] Ghalia: I think the brand could stretch in many areas. There are several formats existing today, allowing it to do that stretch, but it's always a choice for the brand to say like, if I wanna go there, if it's relevant for me to go there or not. [00:17:23] Steve: Yes. [00:17:23] Ghalia: So in one sense, it would be very relevant for Netflix to. [00:17:28] Stretch toward that story living because it's the context they have done, the friend's exhibition, for instance. Now maybe they're doing it more into a hotel, et cetera, but would it be relevant for another fashion brand to go into that stretch? Maybe not even though the format exists and could be explored. [00:17:47] So this would lead us to. That point where we start making choices. If I have if I am a fashion brand where should I exist and how, and what are the formats that I should [00:18:00] be exploring to give the opportunity for my customer to come get in touch with me and live that experience Today, three formats have been, very much used and adopted by fashion brands and lifestyle brands, which are restoration and coffee shops. Hospitality. [00:18:15] Steve: Yes. Huge. [00:18:16] Ghalia: A lot of them. So many. And then pop-up stores or in real life experiences, we can have a thousand of examples. And then [00:18:26] alarm testing. Oh my god. [00:18:29] Steve: A test. [00:18:49] Ghalia: Okay. Effect. [00:18:52] Speaker 3: Gonna go again.[00:19:00] [00:19:02] Steve: Definitely. Oh, that's our off cut. That's our bloopers. [00:19:07] Ghalia: Okay. [00:19:07] Steve: Where were [00:19:07] Ghalia: you? [00:19:08] Steve: So you, yeah, [00:19:10] Ghalia: we were exploring the different form. Yes. The stretch. Yeah. And [00:19:16] Steve: yeah, because you gave the three example, you were about to give three examples. Yeah. The retail the coffee shops, the the popups and those, the third one, we shouldn't get to the third [00:19:24] Ghalia: one. [00:19:24] And the cultural Yes. [00:19:27] Speaker 3: Story. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Should [00:19:32] Steve: we do it from, cut it from that? Yeah. I [00:19:34] Speaker 3: think that Yeah. Start again there because it's easier to capture. Okay. Yeah. [00:19:38] Steve: Okay. We do that. I'll ask the question again. Yeah. Of course. So, I mean, I think some of these some of the word I'm trying to think. [00:19:45] 'cause we have, we wove naturally into it. Hang on. You were talking of the story. I know, but I had an angle where I went into it. Hang on. I don't wanna lose flow. [00:19:56] Speaker 3: You came from storytelling to story. Yeah. [00:20:00] Story doing, and then you gained it later. [00:20:03] Steve: Yeah. We've gone through on this kind of storytelling to kind of story living and even story doing and inviting customers to engage on with the story, but in different ways. I mean, Netflix is as a, is a beautiful example of taking a service and a something that's on a screen and now with Netflix House to be able to immerse and live that story and even engage and co-create. [00:20:24] Engage in a story in a very different way, particularly stranger things. No doubt it's gonna be a huge success. But what are you seeing in this space around how brands are actually engaging customers with and through story living. [00:20:36] Ghalia: So it's been very interesting today that brands have had the opportunity to explore several retail formats. [00:20:43] There are millions of options that exist. For instance Netflix, going from onscreen to physical and then seeing how customers would react to that. We have seen a lot of experiences like the exhibition experiences, like the friends [00:21:00] experience that toured the world and now the Stranger Things. I've seen the Stranger Thing pop up on the, and then an exhibition at where we have seen two different aspects of the brand. [00:21:15] Speaker 3: Shit. [00:21:19] Steve: How many are there? [00:21:26] I think they're doing it on purpose though. What's this? [00:21:32] Ghalia: Oh my God. [00:21:36] Speaker 3: Storytelling story ni, [00:21:38] Ghalia: we can assure everyone that the alarms are working now. Yeah. [00:21:43] Steve: You can cut, you can jump straight in from We're seeing, yeah. Yeah. 'cause I can cut between cameras on that. Okay. [00:21:48] Speaker 3: You can, we can find different, yeah. Okay, go. [00:21:54] Ghalia: So, this means that the brand has the possibility to explore different [00:22:00] formats whether it was physical, digital, pop-up in real life, brand activation, you name it. [00:22:06] But would it be relevant that every brand goes into absolutely every type of available format at a certain point? We say no because some brands do not need technology and other brands are in need of technology. So for instance today we can see that fashion brands are stretching mainly in three areas on top of their boutiques, their flagship stores, their online store. [00:22:32] You can see a coffee shop or a restaurant. Definitely. It's nice. It's definitely. See sometimes like trunk shows or special hidden events invitation only. You can see lots of in real life experiences and we have noticed a lot of cultural aspects related to brand exhibitions. The brand wants to exhibit its history and it's inviting customers through this cultural, immersive experience [00:23:00] as. [00:23:00] Relevant as it can be and as similar as visiting a museum as it can be into the brand's universe. Now these are very much maybe adopted by fashion brands, but there are other types of brands such as Netflix, for instance. Or maybe digital native brands that have adopted partially some kind of seasonal store. [00:23:23] For instance, if I'm selling flip flops like Haass, would I need a store all year long in a country? Where the flip flops would only be used for six months. Yeah. And if I'm selling sea ski products, for instance, would I also need a full-time so I can exist today in retail from time to time, physically, if I have an online store, I can create events, popups, or other experiences should the brand want to, and all of this under the context of I have the choice. [00:23:57] But what choices should I be making [00:24:00] to make more sense and give meaning to my customer? [00:24:03] Steve: Yeah, that's really nice a word coming up as well here because as we're entering into this I think we're gonna enter into a real boom in this area. It's continued. I think we're in a really interesting space. [00:24:15] However, authenticity. It's such a key element to this as well. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that, about maintaining this kind of brand essence and the authenticity behind its intention? [00:24:28] Ghalia: Yeah. [00:24:28] Steve: Particularly say if it's a popup or in the form of a cafe. I know there's commercially driven elements to this, and that's always important, but then customers smell. [00:24:38] They smell it now. Yeah. They're way more astute. They can, they understand if there's a bad intention behind it or if it's not authentic. [00:24:45] Ghalia: Yeah. [00:24:45] Steve: What's your thoughts on that? [00:24:47] Ghalia: It's a difficult question to answer. Yeah. But I think and I'd always preach for that like saying. Don't change who you are who you are, and just like be natural. [00:24:59] There are [00:25:00] lots of things that will be done. Lots of new technologies, lots of new beautiful stuff that work, but they work for other brands. It does not mean that they can work for you or will work for you. Yeah. So I think authenticity is doing what you can do in the best way possible and pushing your ex to, to that, to the extreme, but just. [00:25:20] Not doing the makeup, that does not suit you. [00:25:23] Steve: Yeah. [00:25:24] Ghalia: And I think that we are very much tempted today as brand managers because we have the tendency to go to an exhibition see the new technology and say like, wow, this is a nice technology. Let me just bring it in and adopt it and we'll test. But sometimes it takes more than that. [00:25:42] Yeah. We have to go back into understanding whether this suits the brand or not. [00:25:47] Steve: Yeah. So, you mentioned as well a couple of times popups as one of the forms in which brands have been testing and using Yeah. In a way. So I'm really curious on this. 'cause you did your PhD [00:26:00] on popups. Tell us more about that because it's so unique and I would love to dive into that about what you've extracted in the learning. [00:26:07] Ghalia: So I think popups, as a tool or as a retail format could take a very long time to study and to read. I have always been interested in the retail environment. And when the time came. I thought how would an FMR retail environment be at this point and how it would impact consumers experiences? [00:26:31] So when I studied popups, I studied that specific context, and ever since I've been studying that context strangely, like 20 years ago when the recession hit Europe I was on the tube that day. And they call it serendipity. I took that paper. They used to distribute for free. Oh yeah. [00:26:50] And I opened the page and I read an article about a pop-up store opening in East London. I said, wow, what is this thing? So I [00:27:00] go with my digital camera. They used to exist 20 years. And I said, let me just go and see what's what's the story around this store? And then this. The entire discovery of Floop started 20 years ago. [00:27:15] So I have been looking at different pop-up stores at different brand levels, whether luxury or mass. I have compared those for a long time. And then I have also. So, paid much interest into looking at what types of experiences are lived and felt in a popup, whether, for instance, this has a positive experience on the customer, letting him purchase stay longer or go to the physical store or whatever we need him to do. [00:27:44] Or a negative experience like saying, I'm overwhelmed and I just wanna leave this space. So. Interesting. I think there's a lot to talk about. Yeah. And a lot to explore with pop-up stores. But the most important thing that I could say, [00:28:00] that this is a beautiful tool and it's a valuable tool that if used dwell. [00:28:06] With the right vision in mind could help us keep the brand very much alive in the sense that every time we do a popup, we're injecting a sense of novelty into the brand, but we're also learning what's working for our brand and we are renewing that constantly. And it means that you are always waking up, refreshing yourself and saying, I'm going to be doing my best today. [00:28:33] And just you live your best. Today and do the best for tomorrow. Yes. And it means that these types of brands are just making an effort, listening to the customers, giving them the opportunity to talk and converse with them. And also saying that we have listened to you, we now will give you whatever you need if it makes also sense for our brand. [00:28:55] So it's a great thing. [00:28:57] Steve: So. So what I'm hearing there it's a test and [00:29:00] learn. It's an experimental, it's a way of engaging customers. Yes. Observing in real time. Yes. How they're engaging. Yes. Or not engaging. There's learning [00:29:07] Ghalia: Exactly. The qualitative type. The qualitative, [00:29:11] Steve: definitely. A question in this where did popups kind of start? [00:29:16] Where was the kind of the rumblings of it and when did it, we start calling it popups. When did it kind of form into an identity? [00:29:23] Ghalia: I think the the term popup has been, coined around 2004. Okay. However, ephemeral stores existed for a long time. The Fal concept exists. The Eiffel Tower was supposed to be ephemeral and here it is, right? [00:29:37] So it was built for the great exhibition and then it stayed because it created meaning around it and be, and became an icon of this city, right? Interesting. I think that the concept of Amaral existed at first in Asia and I think in Japan because it, it's said sometime in history. [00:29:55] We read those and we link those back to the fact that during [00:30:00] some kind of season they used to come and sell or the fireworks. When we sold everything, we just strapped our table and left. And then there were the two designers from the Brand com de Gar who have spotted that and brought the idea back to North America. [00:30:19] And then around 2000 and 2000 on to 2004, it became more clear that we can do that type of appear, disappear. I am here. And then I'm not there to create some kind of experience or hunt towards an experience. Yes, because I just wanna go discover what's there. [00:30:41] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:30:41] Ghalia: And that first popups were really focusing on that they were not advertised. [00:30:47] You had to go do an effort and search for them. Yeah. It was like the treasure hunt. [00:30:52] Steve: Yeah. Great. [00:30:53] Ghalia: Yeah. But now we. Packed something interesting, even though it's advertised. We just want the [00:31:00] curtain to unveil and just to go on and see what the brand has been doing. If it's offering stuff sometimes there are limited additions. [00:31:07] Those little goodies. Yeah. The drops, like the little drops. Yeah. And I just wanna be part of it. Why not? So there's the best of both worlds. [00:31:16] Steve: Yeah. How the, how in terms of, 'cause I really hadn't really considered popups as. A test and learn necessarily. Maybe it is obvious, I dunno. I, but I hadn't considered, I'd seen it more as a, of a way of doing the drops, the collaborations, driving obviously brand advocacy, those types of things. [00:31:38] Engaging probably their brand ambassadors to a certain degree. What kind of, just to kind of anchor a little bit more, because this, I, this is interesting. This is, I think where a lot of organizations, whether it's retail. Doesn't matter. But I think experimentation tends to be quite a tricky [00:31:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:31:54] Steve: Thing because people want this tangible outcome to everything. So I'm just kind of curious to see like what's, [00:32:00] what have you seen, like where brands have got it really right, right. With popups without it becoming a white, a whitewash of just, [00:32:08] Ghalia: I wouldn't, they're saying like, I would know the result of each and every No. [00:32:13] But if we wanna talk about testing and learning. I would say that it would be a very interesting tool that many brands, especially luxury brands, have used for quite some time, especially when it comes to, discovering new locations, instead of going directly to that location and opening a flagship store or their boutique, which is costly, they would use pop-up stores as a foreign mode operation, strategic operation to test an area for a longer period in an Fal way, and to see if they could grab the attention of the people living around or some customers. [00:32:54] So luxury brands have been using it as a strategic tool. Then there could be also the [00:33:00] idea of testing some kinds of products or collections that the brand does not generally suggest on the menu. And then would say, okay, let me do the popup. I would do the buzz, sorry, around it, and then I would suggest this type of collection. [00:33:16] If it pleases, I might repeat it and integrate it the next season in my initial. Collections. Otherwise it would be a test and I would simply label it under my pop-up store, have presented this collection and people will forget. So this is also a notion worth talking about when testing and learning if we are doing it right, of course. [00:33:39] And under the brand's guidelines, I can test. If I fail or I see that the product is a no go or the experience or service, I drop it and then I move on to the next thing. However, if I repeat it for quite some time, then I am making a statement that this [00:34:00] is what I'm going to go. With, yeah, for the coming seasons, and it would be a statement. [00:34:05] So you see that there is this double edge to that sort. Yeah. Nice. And it's interesting to see how I can do it to be able to move on and onwards. And finally, I think we've talked about location quite some time. You have noticed that many pop-up stores. Test several locations in the summer, for instance, or the winter, such as Kari the Hamptons or maybe somewhere in big cities saying like, okay, now this is the hit. [00:34:35] This is the it location. I'm going to be appearing here. Is it a one thing or is it going to be a permanent thing? And this is how they just slip into the location through their popup strategy. [00:34:49] Steve: Yeah. For anyone listening. Can we give any insight, like what to look out for when going into a popup store? [00:34:55] Just to be aware of as a customer. 'cause you should demand something back for your time, [00:35:00] right? So, and things should be considered, brands should be there. And delivering something that is considered an intentional time is an important currency that we have. So when we step inside of a popup store. [00:35:10] What should we be looking out for [00:35:12] Ghalia: as a customer? Yeah. [00:35:14] Steve: Through the eyes of the customer. What's some of the behind the curtain stuff that we can share? [00:35:18] Ghalia: Oh my God, this is so difficult. There are lots of maybes in the popup, so. If you wanna go there, the first thing you would have in my, this is your first defense mechanism. [00:35:31] Okay. Am I in a normal store or am I in a different type of store? So the first thing I believe should be the shock that the brand should be doing between what the perception is vis-a-vis. The traditional store, what I am acquainted to seeing and the shock that the pop-up store will be giving me, like something different, something new. [00:35:57] For instance when you go to a pop-up store of [00:36:00] a brand X, if it has a replica of your boutique. Why are you even doing the pop-up store? When a customer first walks in a pop-up store, he will directly evaluate whether this one is different or this similar. From the initial brand store, there should be this kind of shock. [00:36:16] If it's a replica of the exact same stance, the exact same products, then why we are doing it in the first place. So there are the questions relative to the type of collection I'm integrating. The type of walls and if there are any event walls, like game walls like advent walls during the holiday season like screens, interactive screens maybe a certain tala or whatever ticket you get, a selfie. [00:36:46] A camera or po magic mirrors all of these like integrated somehow in the maze of the popup. And then there are always the sweet additions related to a small coffee shop or a small restaurant or small [00:37:00] exhibition. And the special additions. And finally the idea relative to this beautiful and amazing storytelling we have been talking about, there are lots of brands to doing it today, whether high end or low end exhibiting memorabilia within the context of the pop-up because they just want to invite, again, the customer to say like, this is true. [00:37:24] What we're talking about is. There and let us show you how it's relevant. And if I might jot in there some ideas. A couple of months ago a fashion brand, a local French fashion brand called Pramod, did its pop-up store and they have done like a rotating conveyor on which they have displayed iconic. [00:37:45] Pieces from the past 20 ish years, which is a cool thing because a customer could get their hands on this limited edition through the popup. And there's everything around the fun [00:38:00] experiences. For instance, a crafting table. You can sit and do things on your own. No stress. There is also a small kiosk for a coffee shop. [00:38:09] There are also information like about the history of the pieces, et cetera. So in a way it's informative and another, you can do your shopping or if you just wanna go and have your fun time, have your coffee cake and go out, you can also do that. And I think it was done in a way that. The brand gave you the opportunity to live your own, experience, your own way, at your own pace, and then if you want to get in touch with the brand, through the product or other instances, you can because you have the opportunity to do it. [00:38:43] And I think today, pop-up stores such as this one did not go the extra mile, was crazy. Crazy things. They just have done what the brand needs to do in the most simple way because this is what customers expect. [00:38:58] Steve: Yes. [00:39:00] Question. How are customers' expectations changing or have changed? [00:39:05] Ghalia: I think they have seen a lot and we learn, but we have been seeing a lot of pop-up stores. [00:39:10] We have comparing and contrasting and sometimes we have also read lots of critics about these things that customers are pop-up shop popping, like yeah, there's the Prada one, there's the Valentino one, there's the DI one, there's this one. And I just, I go to each and every one and I do the comparing and contrasting. [00:39:31] Especially that most of these popups could happen at the same time frame. For instance, during a strong period, such as the end of fear festivities, Christmas, for instance, Valentine's Mother's Day. So you have a flood of those. In a way it's a good thing because we need to compare contrast. It keeps us on our toes as brands. [00:39:53] On the other hand, if there is no comparative variable to that making it [00:40:00] so unique, the customer would also say like, yeah, it's that other popup where they're just serving another cup of coffee. So we have to also find the good balance between those. [00:40:12] Steve: So well, so look, 1, 1, 1 thing I'd love to kind of dive into as well is, de design of stores because of whether you are designing a popup or actually physical environments now and a lot like historically, they tend to have been served for efficiency, frictionless. [00:40:28] Product placement, all of these elements, I'm, from a historical point of view, in a traditional sense, how, what's that kind of, what's that? How is that evolving in terms of how people design stores and this kind of internal dialogue between C-Suite and this kind of design community inside the store design piece? [00:40:47] Ghalia: I don't know if people. Still talk with each other or are doing the effort. There has been a lot of changes internally in terms of management because brands were very much siloed. [00:41:00] For a long time, marketing was very different from buying, was very different from other functions. And we c we couldn't at the time even consider that retail design was a function that we need to integrate within the entire brand management bubble, let's say. [00:41:17] So today. I believe that retail design is a major aspect of the entire experience because first of all, people enjoy what they see. Beauty. Beauty is a, is an important factor today. The atmosphere that we have been studying for so long. Should be really considered as part of any other managerial variable because it is the space or the location that will house and hold my product that will accommodate to my customer's movements and experiences. [00:41:53] And it is the location in which my customer will build its own holistic experience or whenever they are [00:42:00] in touch with the brand. Now the question lies in whether we're designing for beautification and eye candy only, or we're designing for a seamless customer journey. Yeah. This is where this idea of customer centricity comes in play because it. [00:42:18] Would be saying to brand managers that you have to think really in the opposite way of your traditional way of thinking. You're not designing for design purpose. You are thinking of the customer journey, what you wanted to accomplish and how you want it to be working. And then the design should go from that point onward. [00:42:39] Now in your experience, how many brands are doing it? Very few. And I think when we talk with retail designers, if we acknowledge that we have retail designers, if we talk to those team members, there are very few brands integrating in-house retail design. It has always been an [00:43:00] external function in which we add, which cannot be today. [00:43:04] And I think that as much as the atmosphere has to be a beautiful space, it has to also work for the brand to minimize the frictions and to be able to deliver what we always praise about this frictionless customer journey. [00:43:22] Steve: Yeah. Amazing. Let's just, can we just also pivot around if we're thinking about design and for brands to have more meaning like bringing this kind of together, how are we, how, like where's the opportunity in this of citizen brands for brands to go outside of themselves, to serve community, to be the brands that bring people together, to go even to on a, on a. [00:43:48] From a planetary level, sustainability, all of these elements where's the play in that? What are you seeing in that space as well to go beyond just profit and selling products? [00:43:59] Ghalia: This [00:44:00] is also another dimension of what we can really think of in terms of retail. Yeah. What we have been talking about is designing for the inside of the store, but the store also exists. [00:44:13] Location. So we have to see how the outside integrates that store itself and how this store becomes one part of many. Therefore, it's really interesting to also consider when we're designing, if we're designing for the space or we're designing for the space within an entire retail environment, which makes really sense today because we always talk about. [00:44:39] Think global and act local. [00:44:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:44:42] Ghalia: So, yes, we really have to act local today. The brand has to accommodate itself and its design to the location in which it would hopefully serve the customers. This means that it has to have a cultural, local, meaning it has to [00:45:00] make sense to people who live here and who have some kind of tradition in this location. [00:45:06] It means that this retail space or brand would also give us the opportunity to complete the customers. We're talking about experience on different levels, but daily experience, I just want my brand to blend in the day to day or the week to my customer. They are going out, they are visiting this store and then coming into my store. [00:45:28] This has to be a natural change and therefore I have to really understand what they are looking for. It's a lot of work for brands because we are sitting at the place of our customers understanding what they're really hoping for, what they want, and as part of the community why coming to this brand in this location would be different from going to the same brand in a different location. [00:45:55] What is the message behind that visit and am I really [00:46:00] adding value to their experience through. Again, we're going through that beautiful word, delivering meaning right here and right now, so it's important today if we're also taking a step back and looking at our retail spaces, physical retail spaces, to see how we make sense. [00:46:19] A bundle of other spaces that have been created around us and all of these beautiful brands. Are they giving the community something interesting? Are they creating something different? Are they creating a new space? And would this space generate meaning to become a place, a meeting, a rendezvous? [00:46:40] When we say, let's go to that location, it's because. It simplifies our lives. It gives us an opportunity to spend a good time, at least if we believe it's a good time for us, and it makes things easier for us, so therefore, this location becomes more meaningful [00:47:00] because it has added value to our experience. [00:47:04] And it's nice to look at it that way. [00:47:05] Steve: Definitely two examples that come to mind actually. JD Sports. [00:47:09] Ghalia: Yeah. I [00:47:10] Steve: think they're doing really interesting thing with their customer base. Yes. To create this connection and this kind of community. Lululemon is a classic. Yes. I mean, they're serving and supporting customers in so many different things. [00:47:22] They're the products over there. Yeah. But actually what they're supporting with is so many other offerings and but they're there as a brand. That's the key to it. Yeah. Lululemon is there. Yes. And that's enough. It blends [00:47:33] Ghalia: in. That's blend. It's beautiful. Yeah. [00:47:34] Steve: It's a really smart business. Exactly. [00:47:37] What do you, what else do you see anything in that space [00:47:39] Ghalia: and so on top of Lululemon, for instance, when we're looking at a brand, going away from product, delivering an experience that will lead to the purchase of the product. There are also interesting examples, for instance, in France and other. [00:47:53] Multi-brand streetwear, multi-brand store called Tedium, where you're going into a living fruit party. [00:48:00] It's a social interaction. You go the, yeah, the DJ playing music, and there's the merchandise here and there's a little kiosk there, and there's a baby foot somehow in this space. So you would see people doing everything. [00:48:14] Other than shopping, but then you would see a lot of people buying a lot of things. And it's interesting because the shopping experience goes above and beyond the transactional aspect of like, I'm having a product for you, come and purchase it. And if we have been topping up all of these examples, it would mean that these brands understand their communities. [00:48:38] And they understand that the community when shopping is looking for things that go beyond the mere transactional aspect, and they are building the space and accommodating the teams to serve that purpose. Yeah. [00:48:53] Steve: I wanna just build as well, a little bit on, on the high tech and low touch. Yeah. [00:48:58] Because delivering [00:49:00] these kind of, all of this stuff that we just shared, some of these examples here is a combination of some of those. Yeah. But how do we kind of. Kind of create actionable change as designers in that space to kind of have this kind of blend. Because not all experiences have to be big, memorable Wow. [00:49:15] Moments technically driven. They need to be intentional and thoughtful. Yeah. And sometimes the smallest thing can leave the biggest memory inside of people. Just to give a sense of like, yeah. What the direction of that kind of, as we, AI is coming in, as we've got this kind of traditional experience design toolkits as we're kind of, bring these two worlds together. [00:49:35] How we, how do we stay true to it all? How do we kind of keep the, keep us grounded? [00:49:40] Ghalia: Let's keep sense making as a key master keyword here. Does it make sense to integrate high touch or to include high tech? Or should I just blend in one into the other? What makes sense for my brand and what does my brand need, first of all, and what does my [00:50:00] customer expect then if we're putting this high tech, high touch? [00:50:04] We are creating a matrix, right? You would have a pure high tech and pure high touch, and you would have one more here and one more there. W, which means that there are also all the possibilities existing today, and it would mean that there are different kinds of brands that could be positioned into that matrix. [00:50:24] Now in 2025, we're talking ai, we're talking automation. We're talking digitization. All of this exists, but there's a testament that there are pure touch environments that do not integrate any technology and they are working fine. Go, for instance, again, to the to Basha coffee. There's no technology. [00:50:46] You're exploring a coffee environment in a beautiful setup, and you're going through the storytelling. The entire experience is very touchy. I'm there right now and I'm feeling happy. I'm smelling the [00:51:00] coffee and there's no technology. But right next door to it, a L'Oreal flagship store, you're into high tech moments because today beauty tech is becoming important. [00:51:11] We have the opportunity to give our customers these technologies where they can test their skin type, God knows what. You have all of this technology there in a beautiful space and all of it makes sense. So you choose what you want to choose as a brand. You just have to understand which one works best for you and what works best for your customer. [00:51:33] Steve: Amazing. Amazing. Doesn't have to cost the earth. I agree. That exactly. Yeah. Ghalia just to kind of close off. As a, as an academic, as a consultant, you've got quite a unique lens, obviously deeply grounded in research and also of course consulting where you also have this kind of vast well, you've had a vast opportunity to go and engage, but also observe different brands and different businesses. [00:51:58] And so I'm just curious [00:52:00] what do you see, what, like three directions for the future if we kinda like had three possibility of outcomes for the future of retail? What do you see? [00:52:10] Ghalia: I believe that retail will always evolve and it'll always stay in this evolution. However it'll stay true to what it is. [00:52:20] It'll always be human human centered, human led. It'll always praise physical. It'll always pray physical and it'll give the opportunity for customer to become themselves in that space. I believe that commerce and social variables should very much align and they will become more and more important because. [00:52:45] People want truth, they want reality, and they want to be out there. Whether it is a person or a brand there should be no difference at this point. They should become one. So I [00:53:00] believe that the entire space or environment has to be rethought towards the idea of integrating cultural commerce or social commerce instead of focusing on transaction alone. [00:53:13] Steve: Nice. Love that. [00:53:15] Ghalia: I hope so. At the end of the day. Amen. To that. That's, [00:53:18] Steve: I fully support that. But Ghalia, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I hope you've enjoyed this experience. I love this and no one will ever know, but we've had an experience, few experiences just getting through this recording and we're getting more and more people coming around and enjoying this space now as well. [00:53:35] Yeah. So this is super cool. But thank you so much for joining and thank you for having me. The contribution. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:53:46] Ghalia: Yay. We made it through. [00:53:51] That's beautiful. Thank you.