Secret Cinema's Dean Rogers on Creative Excellence, Grease Immersive & Why Playing It Safe Is the Biggest Mistake in the Future Experience Economy

[00:00:00] Steve: So Dean, welcome to the Experience Designers. [00:00:03] Dean: Yeah, great. So good to finally be here. We've been trying to get this in the diary for quite a while now, so it's good to finally make it. [00:00:08] Steve: Yeah, it does give that ever little bit of extra satisfaction, that's for sure. [00:00:11] Dean: Yeah. [00:00:11] Steve: That's for sure. Dean, just a quickie. [00:00:13] Where are we sitting right now? [00:00:14] Dean: We're sitting at the offices of Secret Cinema. [00:00:16] We're based here in London on the Strand. Really lovely office space that we're very glad to have. [00:00:20] Steve: So this is where the magic happens. [00:00:21] Dean: This is where the planning of the magic happens. Oh, [00:00:23] Steve: yeah, [00:00:23] Dean: nice. [00:00:24] The real magic happens at our venue with- venues with our audiences. Yes. [00:00:28] Steve: Yes. [00:00:28] So Dean, you've, ... Let's just start with a bit of a backstory if we may, 'cause I'm really curious, 'cause l- like many people in the experience design field- [00:00:36] ... [00:00:36] Steve: It's never a straightforward one. No. And I think you've described your one as a bit of a weird one I think I quote. [00:00:41] Dean: Yeah. [00:00:41] Steve: So tell us a bit more about your weird journey and some of the key anchors in your journey to wr- perhaps even just a- us sitting here today in the Experience Designers podcast and- [00:00:50] Dean: Yeah, [00:00:50] Steve: for sure ... that journey for you. [00:00:52] Dean: I say it's a weird journey, but with the caveat of, as you say, everyone's journey in this sector is a bit weird. [00:00:56] Yeah. But I trained as a theater director. And I very much was into, w- was o- on that path. And then I saw my first ever immersive theater show in about 2013, and I said that's what I wanna do." And so off the back of that, I directed a show with a couple of friends called Heist which we, in which we took over a five-story building in Central London. [00:01:16] We placed a painting on the fifth floor, and we challenged audiences to commit a robbery. So we had our audiences break into the building and steal from us. And this was a tiny show made on spit and gaff tape that was supposed to run for four weeks. And it ended up being a complete runaway hit and running for nine months. [00:01:33] Wow. And so that was, like the start of my career, really. [00:01:36] Steve: Yeah. [00:01:36] Dean: And that was, like, 2014, I think. And so off the back of that, I got asked to design an escape room, and at the time I had no idea what an escape room was. But I was also 24 and broke, so I said, "Yes, of course I'll do that." And I worked with my friend Nick Moran, and we created an escape room called Time Run, which i- [00:01:50] And Time Run is still today it's sadly not open anymore, but still regarded as one of the best escape rooms in UK history. We're very proud of it. And then after that, I, with my friend Tom McGuire, we g- co-founded and set up the Crystal Maze Live experience which is the UK's longest running live game experience, still open on Shaftesbury Avenue today. [00:02:08] And so to do that, we launched a crowdfunding campaign. We raised a million pounds, just under a million pounds. Very annoying that it is just under a million pounds as well. But we just gotta live with that. Just under a million pounds we raised i- in a couple of weeks to put the Crystal Maze on. [00:02:21] That's awesome. And then off the back of ... Since then, I started my own company called Roe Productions. And we made lots of escape rooms, brand experiences, immersive theater shows all across the UK and America as well. And then in 2020 a global pandemic occurred, so I closed the door on Roe Productions and then I went into the world of brand experiences for a little while. [00:02:39] So I worked with a really amazing brand experience agency called Bearded Kitten as their head of immersive. Did that for a couple of years. And then just as I was getting itchy feet, just as I thought I was looking for my next move I saw a job post by Secret Cinema, and that's just, that was, I just knew that was that, that's the dream. [00:02:54] I, I first applied to work with Secret Cinema in 2013 when I saw when I saw The Shawshank Redemption. I just applied to be an intern, and they never got back. They took a f- they took a 12 years, but they got back to me. So yeah, so I so now I wor- work at Secret Cinema. I work primarily with our studio with our studio arm, which I'll talk a bit more about later. [00:03:13] But I'm our experiential director, so I look after kind of business development, new projects, a bit of creative, a bit of commercial. Get to do a bit of everything. It's really nice. [00:03:20] Steve: Nice. [00:03:21] Dean: Yeah. [00:03:22] Steve: Can I just go back, though? You just said something right at the beginning, super interesting. When you went to your first immersive experience- so if it... W- what was going through your eyes in that moment when you went through it? What was going on? What was the... What were you seeing f- and more, more importantly, feeling that kind of triggered this response in the sense of you saying, "I wanna do this. This is something I want to do"? [00:03:42] Dean: Yeah. I guess when I was when I was training as a director, I was v- I felt very aware that I really like theater, and I really like making theater, and I was really good at directing actors, but I didn't know what kind of theater I wanted to make. I didn't know what a Dean Rogers show looked like, and so I was searching for that and doing a bit of soul searching. [00:04:02] So I, so and I was, And I was seeing lots of stuff, and you see a lot of very weird stuff when you're studying theater. There's a lot lots of great, weird, and wonderful things. And so I saw the show Shelf Life, and it just completely changed my life. I came out of it and went that's the kind of show I wanna make." [00:04:14] Yeah. 100%, that feeling I had throughout that show is the feeling I wanna make other people have. I'll tell you a bit about the show because it is, it was- Go on ... by a company called Half Cut who they don't exist anymore, sadly. But this was the early days of immersive theater when there were lots of different companies, and it was a bit more of a Wild West. [00:04:30] But at the start of the show, you were given a white balloon- ... that was empty. It wasn't filled up yet. And you were told to walk down a giant red corridor, and you were told literally nothing else. You're walking down this giant red corridor with this white balloon in your hand, and then eventually you step out of a giant vagina, and you're in a maternity ward. [00:04:46] And all the doctors are acting like you're a baby that's just gotten born. You get put in a bed. You get wheeled off. And then you, and then your balloon gets blown up, and you're a person now. And then you go from being a baby, you get taken to preschool, you go to school, you go to the playground. And then eventually you you go to a school disco. [00:05:04] You go to high school. And then you grow up. You get your first job. It's rubbish. You get married. And then right about the... And the whole time you were doing this there was a woman all in black with a black balloon following us the whole time. She never spoke. She never did anything. [00:05:18] And right when I was looking to buy a timeshare in i- in on the Co- Costa del Sol she popped my balloon, and all of the actors screamed. And she just took my hand and led me away. [00:05:31] Steve: Oh, you died. [00:05:32] Dean: I died of a brain aneurysm at age 57. And the feel... i'd never before felt the feeling of so much agency, so much- I really felt like I was I, like I was just in another world for the few hours I was in that show. [00:05:45] And I also think that's a great idea for a show, of do a life in a show. It's really- [00:05:48] Steve: Genius ... [00:05:48] Dean: genius. It really is. I it's a really great concept, and I was just so blown away by it. [00:05:53] Steve: We're se- we're seeking that kind of stuff. That's the s- Yeah ... just that originality, that depth, that... [00:05:58] Yeah. [00:05:58] Dean: This- It just- Yeah, this is it. I just was so blown away by, by s- by everything in it, yeah. And so that's what really motivated me to... And I've since seen lots of other brilliant immersive theater shows- Yeah ... and lots of great other experiences, but that one be- [00:06:09] Steve: Just the [00:06:09] Dean: one ... you always remember your first one. [00:06:10] Steve: Yeah. Literally. So let's dive a little bit into the journey of experiential, i'd just I wanna unpack that a little bit- ... 'cause you've gone on your own journey. And so I think observationally you've also seen not only yourself develop as part of the industry- and how you've contributed to it, but also you've seen this kind of the world around you of- ... experiential also change- Yeah ... with you and around you. How would you... let's walk through that for a moment. How has it, how, where did it, how has it first started to evolve, and then where has it been evolving and moving into? [00:06:38] Dean: Yeah. I think I felt a, I felt as my career has moved and the changes- ... I feel like my career when I look back on it, has mirrored the shape of the industry overall quite a lot. And I th- I think there have been maybe four phases in the, in... I always hate calling it an industry, but the sector or the scene or whatever- Yeah [00:06:57] you want to, whatever. But in this experiential in this world of experiential art and entertainment, I think there's been four, four major phases so far. And I think phase one was that kind of very much when what that show Shelf Life was part of it was very underground, it was very art lead, it was very avant-garde, and it was, it was something your quirky mate did at the weekend. [00:07:16] It wasn't... and that's when you had this was maybe the 20- early 2010s. And this is when you had Punchdrunk and You Me Bum Train and Secret Cinema starting out. And that's where all of those companies came from, that very underground, very avant-garde, very art, for art world. [00:07:28] And I think that stuck around for a while, till maybe the mid-2010s. And I think in the mid-2010s you see the shift and I think the, our Crystal Maze experience is a really big part of that, the shift where s- people are suddenly realizing, "Oh, this is a real business, actually," and that then you start to get big IPs, big money coming into the sector. [00:07:47] And it starts to become very commercially exciting, right? Yeah. The b- the sort of business of it starts to really come together. And then you have COVID. You have the 20- the tw- early 2020s. And I think where, what, where we've been since the early 2020s is in a place of real safety. [00:08:05] I think both creatively and commercially we've not been that ambitious as a sector. We've nailed a formula for what works, and we stick to that. And- I don't mean any disrespect by saying that, like the shock that, that the pandemic did to our- Yes ... did to the industry and everything else being s- playing it safe wasn't was the right thing to do. [00:08:25] Steve: Yeah. [00:08:26] Dean: But I think we're about to, we're moving into a fourth phase now, and I think that sense of safety and the, and that sense of playing it safe is going to prove to be a mistake in that fourth phase because I th- audiences are changing, and they're changing rapidly. And I think people have gotten over the pandemic, and I think everything that's happening now in like the tech world as well is having a real impact on entertainment. [00:08:50] And I think people now are seeking things again that are much more novel, that are much more exciting and that are much more different. And so I think the safe choices companies have been making for the last four or five years- ... are just not gonna fly anymore. Yeah. That's where I think we are at. [00:09:06] And I think we at Secret Cinema are very aware of that. We've been trying ... we're being very ambitious in t- in terms of what we do next. And we know that's the, that's kinda the key to survival and the key to this next phase. [00:09:16] Steve: Yeah. What's some of the kinda cultural influences right now? [00:09:19] What are you seeing in terms of what's impacting this shift that's kinda happening? [00:09:23] Dean: Yeah. I a- had a, actually had a really good conversation about this yesterday, so I'm going to steal from a wonderful author called Nat- Na- Natalina High, who is actually speaking at event of ours in a couple of weeks' time. [00:09:31] But I think that there's a couple of different things happening in the culture right now. I think first and foremost, I think everyone is sick of their phones. I think people are really ... I think there's a real pervasive feeling that this is, this little rectangle in your pocket just makes you sad. [00:09:46] People are like, need to do things that are not looking at their phone, that are getting away from it and getting away from the algorithm in a lot of ways. And and I think the antidote to that is real connection and doing things with real people. [00:09:58] Steve: Yeah. [00:09:58] Dean: So I think that's a really major trend for this year. [00:10:01] You and even s- even since we spoke the other day Pinterest have just announced their new ad campaign for the year, and Pin- Pinterest's new ad campaign is, "The best thing to do online is to find something to do offline." And that's Pinterest saying that. That's a digita- that's a digital company saying that. [00:10:17] So it's ver- I think the shift is very apparent. But the other thing that I think is a real driver, especially in the en- the entertainment world is this business of slop. And I think generative AI and AI slop is having a real impact on what people want from entertainment. [00:10:34] I read a really great piece a whi- recently. God, I really need to remember where this was, but I'll find it. But made the point of not all slop is AI. There are f- there are things, and I won't name them here, but there are TV shows and movies that human beings have looked, worked very hard on that look identical to some AI slop. [00:10:50] Steve: Yeah. [00:10:51] Dean: And and what this author Natalie pointed out to me is pointed out is that w- what the- what AI is very good at is recycling things that we've done before. That's not what human creativity is. No. Human creativity is making up brand-new stuff that no one has ever done before. And so when I say not all slop is AI, I think you're seeing a lot of entertainment media that is just recycling. [00:11:13] That is just repack- just repackaging stuff we've done before. [00:11:17] And I think that will satisfy audiences to a point, but I think now audiences are really really craving originality and really craving something novel, and I think the entertainment space n- needs to find ways to give them that. [00:11:29] I think we're really well-placed to do that. Yeah. [00:11:33] Steve: Yeah. [00:11:33] Dean: But we also need... but we also need to be careful especially as so much of the experiential sector has become IP-led. [00:11:38] Steve: Yeah. [00:11:39] Dean: We don't wanna be just doing hollow hollow reproductions of things. [00:11:42] Steve: Yeah. [00:11:43] Dean: I think that w- that isn't the way to kinda move forward. [00:11:45] Nothing wrong with being IP-led. Obviously, Secret Cinema are a very IP-led company, but we always try and do any film we do or any thing we work with, we try and do a really fresh take on. We try and do it in a brand-new way. We, we really did that with Crease last year, and we will be doing it with our new show later this year, trying to do it in a very new, exciting way and show audiences these m- movies in new lights. [00:12:05] Yeah. So I'm not saying you can't touch IP, but I just think you- Yeah ... just reproducing it faithfully, which is what the brands would love you to do, but you need to be like you don't know it yet, but what your audience want is to see this-" "... done in a novel, exciting way." [00:12:17] Steve: Absolutely. Yeah. And we're seeing examples of not so novel ways- ... recently, which w- no doubt we'll get onto. I just wanna unpack this kinda shift as well because what I was hearing and this kind of... it's not simple, it's quite complicated, is that- ... we've kinda got this we want things to, to see the day of light. [00:12:33] And that means it needs investment. Yeah. It needs in order to bring something to life in potentially meaningful way is probably the wrong word, but to kinda build something that is potentially influences many people needs that kind of mass market element, but you still need to maintain creativity as part of that. [00:12:49] So it's... I always find it's a s- it's a balance, isn't it? You don't lose yourself in the commerciality of it, but it... you need it in a way, but also you're not losing the creativity, kinda how these two world- kinda coexist. [00:12:59] Dean: It's so hard, but it is also it's a challenge I genuinely relish. [00:13:02] I- ... I I do love it trying to figure out something that is a great creative... Excuse me. Great creative conc- so I'm trying, I'll start that sentence again. I do really love it. I really relish the challenge of trying to figure out something that's a great creative concept that commercially works. [00:13:15] But also not all things do. No. And you- ... and you need to figure out, you need to figure out your kinda way around that. And try and make, and try and come with a model that works both creatively and commercially. [00:13:25] Steve: Yeah. [00:13:26] Dean: And I guess when I say things have been too safe, is that I feel like there's one comm- there's only a handful of commercial models that we as a, that we as a sector have been using as a bit of a crutch, and I would love to see people trying to do more exciting things commercially as well as, as well as- Yeah [00:13:40] on a creative level. Shall [00:13:41] Steve: we talk about projection-based experiences? [00:13:43] Dean: Yeah, let's talk about projection-based experiences. [00:13:46] Steve: Just briefly. [00:13:47] Dean: Yeah. [00:13:47] Steve: But yeah, that, that's probably an example of safety. [00:13:50] Dean: It's super safe, right? Ultimately, the reason the reason there's so many of them is not the consumer, it's not because consumers love them, it's because they're really cheap, they're really cheap to produce. [00:13:59] They're really cheap to produce, and they're really cheap to put on. And so from an investor point of view, investors see that, and they think that's great. And so that's why we've so many projection shows now. And again, not knocking projection shows. I- But there is too many of them out there. I do think, like where the profusion of them we're seeing is not to do with audience demand. [00:14:15] It's very much an investor push rather than an audience pull. Yeah. [00:14:18] Steve: Yeah. Do you think they serve the purpose, though, projection-based experiences, in the sense of giving ex- accessibility or inviting the public, the general public- ... who perhaps don't even g- wouldn't even think about experiential just in that form, and perhaps to engage in something like, let's go, okay, this is cool, for their first-timers not really having not engaged in something like that, to then actually wanting more, so creating demand through that? [00:14:41] Maybe we look back in 10 years ago, actually, projection-based served a purpose. It was there in our le- it was there in our- Yeah ... in our journey. [00:14:47] Dean: And, yeah, and I think it... Look I've s- I've been to some really great projection shows. Yeah, me too. I've... it... and I do think when done well, it is really amazing. [00:14:53] And I do think it is a... It's very interesting because it is like just an e- it's an exhibition experience, and people get what that is. So they know what they know- Yes ... what they know what they're going to. W- and, one of the challenges I think of reaching new audiences, which is something we've been very passionate about at Secret Cinema over the last year- [00:15:08] Steve: Yeah [00:15:08] Dean: especially, it, We found when we were doing Grease- Yeah ... that our marketing very quickly became, we just have to explain to people what this is, we ditched all of the very kind of persuasive hooks and it just became here is literally what happens. Here is you... [00:15:23] Here is what happens when you buy a ticket and arrive. This is what you're going to experience. And I think that is also because of a shift in our culture as well. I think beforehand, I think y- 10 years ago, there was a lot of mystique around the industry, and people were a lot more trusting to part with 20, 30 pounds to do something they'd never heard of because a friend of theirs said it was cool. [00:15:41] Steve: Yes. [00:15:42] Dean: Whereas now, you Google the menu for every restaurant you go to before you go out, right? You- Yeah ... we don't b- we don't part with our money anymore unless we can verify- that we're gonna have a good time. [00:15:53] Steve: Yes. [00:15:54] Dean: And so that's a way consumers have really changed. And I do think that is because of the internet, and that's because of all of these o- other things. [00:15:59] But people now are like no, I need to know what it is." You have people being like, "I need to know what it is. Do I need to eat beforehand? What kind of shoes do I wear?" All of these questions that you simply wouldn't have been able to answer 10 years ago. When we advertised that heist show I was sa- I was talking about earlier, we literally just told people, "You're gonna pull off a heist. [00:16:16] Be here at this time." That is all of the ... we took a grand total of three photographs of the entire show- ... and we did that on the last night. There was no media about it. There was no explanation of what it w- really what it was. People really bought into the mystique. [00:16:29] Steve: Yeah. [00:16:29] Dean: But people don't just people don't really like that anymore. [00:16:31] Steve: That's a shame. [00:16:32] Dean: It is a shame. But it's one of the things 'cause we ... At Secret Cinema we used to not even tell people- That's right ... what the film was. Yeah, [00:16:37] Steve: Yeah, [00:16:37] Dean: yeah. We used to give we used to do a couple of clues, and that, that was it. Yeah. And I remember the first one I went to was the Shawshank Redemption. [00:16:43] And you were told to, I was told to dress in a suit, and I arrived in a suit, and I went to my court hearing, and I was sent to life in prison, and I was sent to a side room, told to take my suit off and put some prison overalls on. And that was a great flip reversal moment that you can only do- if people don't know what they're coming to. [00:16:59] Steve: Yes. [00:16:59] Dean: But we found is that that, that kind of ... A- and it's it upsets our core fans deeply that the shows are not secret anymore. And I- I think i- in an ideal world, they s- we still would do the odd still secret show more. [00:17:11] But like commercially, it just doesn't really work anymore. No. It's, [00:17:14] Steve: No ... [00:17:15] Dean: it's people have changed. Yeah. The world has changed. Yeah. And we, we have to change, we have to change with it. [00:17:20] Steve: Yeah, definitely. There's, you be, Mum Train's a great one. It's such a legacy one, and it's still- Yeah [00:17:25] got so, because of obviously NDA, now you have to sign an NDA before you even enter it. Yeah. Oh, yeah ... even as a volunteer, and then you go in and you don't quite know even know what to expect, you just lean in. I volunteered last year. It was- Yeah ... amazing. [00:17:36] Dean: I, I've heard, yeah. [00:17:36] Steve: It's stunning. So it's just, it, again, it's just that I love the mystique ones. [00:17:40] That's my own personal preference. [00:17:41] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Can I just also ask, 'cause I think this, there was definitely in the audience there are practitioners, experienced designers listening in on this. [00:17:49] How has your, how have you developed in this time as well? What's been some of your real kinda anchor learnings and- how you've then applied those as you've kinda grown and work- worked on different productions and and yeah, evolved yourself? [00:18:02] Dean: Yeah, there's there, there's a lot. I think I think like gameplay and game design has been very core to my process and always has been. I I really, I've always really come at it like thinking of the audience member as a protagonist, as a kinda player in a vid- player in a game and try to design the experience in that way with like little soft nudges along the way of "Do this now. [00:18:21] Follow this person. Take this person's hand. Go this way." And I've always found that to be very, very powerful and very interesting. And, but also, like the thing about game design is it is a system, right? And it, it gets very tempting to do things a bit by rote. [00:18:36] Steve: And [00:18:37] Dean: I got to a point where I designed quite a lot of escape rooms, and I realized that I was just filling in a spreadsheet, right? [00:18:42] I was just like going pure paint by numbers. "Yeah, you do this here 'cause we know that works. You do that here 'cause we know that works." And so it's been an interesting challenge, like since starting at Secret Cinema and learning the way they, the way we do stuff here and what's expected here. [00:18:56] I've tried to like really try and come at things differently and in new ways because creative excellence is such a core part of what we do here at Secret Cinema. And I was like, day one I was told creative excellence is the thing. And so how do we, how do allow people a more novel experience? [00:19:12] And talking about that, those ideas of like novelty and originality one thing that I've learned since starting here is and it's what Matt Costain our senior creative director talks about all the time, is like what is the big idea of the show? And so the big idea is- like the overarching concept for the show, and that could be a sentence, that could be couple of wo- couple of sentences, paragraph. [00:19:33] But like ultimately, what is the big idea of the show, and how does everything else fee- feed into that? So with Grease the big idea is step into Rydell. So everything about it is you're really at Rydell High. You're really a student. All of this is really happening in the world of Rydell High right now. [00:19:49] And that kind of filters through everything in Grease. Nice. And so that's been a really great learning for me of "Okay, great, we need, when you approach things, we need to go what's the big idea? And how does everything else filter into that?'" [00:20:00] Steve: How easy or difficult is it to get to that? [00:20:04] Sometimes, get, boiling it down to that sim- 'cause sometimes simplicity can be quite a process to get to that. Yeah. 'Cause you might end up slightly, not in the wrong direction, but with a direction. [00:20:12] But then it as you go further through, you go, "Oh, hang on, it's causing a bit of friction," or there's some tension in it. [00:20:18] Dean: Yeah. Some- It's interesting ... something Kat, who is our MD at the studio, has taught me is- ... is you have to go, you have to go deep before to go wide. You have to go, you have to go deep into something and understand it deeply and do the kind of like very detail-heavy work in order f- to have the level of understanding to be like, "All right, so the big idea therefore needs to be this." [00:20:38] Steve: Yes. [00:20:39] Dean: So you need to do that level of understanding and have that level of depth to it. Because it can be quite tempting, and it certainly was tempting for me, it like, it's the big idea, so it needs to be very surface level. It needs to be very all en- it needs to be very high level, top level. [00:20:54] But actually, you need to go deep down, and you need to understand all the little aspects before you can be like, "Oh therefore- Yeah ... the big idea needs to be this." [00:21:01] Steve: Yeah, I'm with you. [00:21:01] Dean: Yeah. [00:21:02] Steve: Can you tell us more about Grease? [00:21:03] Dean: Yeah, would love to. And actually a good learning about Grease as well, like from my kind of like experience design perspective, is also like how Grease needs, how it, these two shows need to be good nights out, how these things need to be... [00:21:15] what you're really giving someone is what someone's really giving you is an evening of their time. Yeah. So how do you make sure that's a worthwhile evening for them? And thinking about therefore all of the other touch points being able to have a good meal, being able to have a drink, being able to catch up with their friends, all of these things that make a good evening out. [00:21:30] How do you bake all of that into an experience as well, has been really good. But yeah, so Grease is we bring to, yeah, as we said, we we bring the world of Rydell High to life. And you step into Rydell High as a student. So you first enter a carnival area outdoors, and that's a bit of a pre-show hangout area. [00:21:45] And then we start the film on the big screen, and then everyone heads inside into school, and then and then the show just runs from there. W- a couple of things that are different about Grease compared to kinda previous Secret Cinemas as well is we wanted to do... With Grease we wanted to do something different in that we wanted to do, immersive theater without the FOMO. [00:22:02] So you're a... So previous shows, our sets were very warren-y, lots of corridors, lots of small rooms. So everyone saw something a bit different, and we decided we wanted to change that for this show. And so the way Grease works is the sight lines are incredible. You could always see everything that is happening. [00:22:19] Oh. And especially for those big musical moments when everyone comes together, everyone has a great view, everyone can see what's going on, and everyone can move around to different spaces but see what's going on. The other thing we did differently is that we we changed our relationship to the film. [00:22:32] I, I don't know if people know, but our, how we used to work is we would run we would run a kind of immersive world up to the film screening that was maybe two, three hours long, and then everyone would sit down in a themed in-world cinema space, and we'd all watch the movie together. [00:22:47] And we'd bring to life certain aspects of the movie. We'd have characters come on and do mirror moments and things like that. But with Grease we decided we'd flip the script. And so what we did is we showed the movie and the sh- live show at the exact same time. So the movie played on about 32 different screens all around the venue and our live actors performed at the same time. [00:23:05] And it... We even we had a camera crew, so we sometimes John Travolta was on the screen, and sometimes it was our Danny who was on the screen, and played a lot with the relationship between the live and the film. And we also had a l- we also had a live band, so a live band playing all of the tracks. [00:23:20] Even if you saw John Travolta singing on screen, you didn't, you weren't hearing John Travolta, you were hearing- [00:23:24] ... [00:23:24] Dean: Our, you were hearing our actors. So yeah, very, a very big and Matt calls this our one world format. Splitting up the film, making the film work differently, but also people really feeling like that, that they're at the heart of it, that they're really living inside the movie. [00:23:36] Steve: Yeah. [00:23:37] Dean: But also coming back to what I was saying earlier, what's also great about Grease is it's a really good- Like night out. Like you, you grab a few drinks, the tunes are really good, dancing tunes. You have a chat with your friends. You have a bit of a boogie. It's a really good night out is what it is e- what, w- why it works really well as a show. [00:23:53] Steve: So I just wanna ask you, and 'cause it was something that I believe I read somewhere that you experimented with a- also from a ticket perspective, which I was really intrigued by. Because there was a multi-levels where you had your VIPs, or where they could come in before and do some, choreograph- t- do some dance moves before the show starts, which I thought was really cool, gave them a kind of access to that. [00:24:13] Was that right? [00:24:14] Dean: Yeah. So we had three ticket types- Yeah ... in the first outing. So we had w- what we called our standard immersive ticket- ... which was you turn up to the show, you don't have an allocated seat, so you can roam about, stand where you like. And that's obviously our m- our main ticket, and that's what most people do. [00:24:28] And then we also had our what we called the... We didn't call them VIP. We decided- ... that language wasn't helpful. [00:24:34] Steve: Yeah. No. [00:24:34] Dean: Not, [00:24:35] Steve: not for this movie. [00:24:36] Dean: Yeah. And so we called the, these kind of roam and return seats. So what they were is seats where you had an allocated seat with a good view. [00:24:42] You had a table. You could leave your stuff there. You could leave your drink there. You can meet back up there with people, but you could also fr- you're also free to go anywhere in the show and look at any bit of the show. And they, those roam and return seats sold out instantly. [00:24:55] Steve: Interesting. [00:24:56] Dean: Which was really interesting. And also, like what it enabled, to our point about accessibility- ... is, It enabled people to come see the show who f- who felt, who might- might have n- who might not have wanted to stand for two hours, right? Or- ... not that you have to stand the entire time in the show, there's plenty of seats, but knowing you have a guaranteed seat gave a lot of people the peace of mind they needed to kinda book. [00:25:13] My mum came, my mum's in her 70s, and she came with her three sisters, who are also all in their 70s, and they probably wouldn't have come had it not been for that seating choice. So that's been a really great learning for us, is that we can do an immersive experience and there can be seats, but we can have people with the freedom to move around, and that makes it more accessible. [00:25:29] Steve: Was there, is there another subsection in that as well, of theatergoers who perhaps haven't been to immersive before- Yeah ... are used- are used to sitting down in a theater? [00:25:35] Dean: Yeah. Could be quite interesting. And I think so, it's because we have access to the TodayTix mailing list, 'cause we're part of the TodayTix group, we also wanted to make something, a show that f- felt like a Secret Cinema show that worked for the TodayTix audience, that was used to that more- kind of theater setup. [00:25:48] Steve: Yes. [00:25:48] Dean: So that was really great for us as well. Smart. Yeah. [00:25:51] Steve: And it sold well? Did really well? [00:25:52] Dean: Grease did really well. Grease is one of the m- the best performing Secret Cinemas ever. [00:25:56] Steve: Whoa. [00:25:56] Dean: It is it's beaten only by some of the biggest movies we've done, do you know what I mean? [00:26:01] Yeah. Which Star Wars and things like that. Yeah. But Grease is especially the run we did last summer, one of one of our most successful shows we've ever done, so we're really delighted with it. [00:26:08] Steve: Fantastic. Yeah. Are we gonna see that back on the- [00:26:10] Dean: Yeah, so it's coming back, reopening, ooh, I don't have the date to hand, but it is- That's okay [00:26:14] It's it is July, August. [00:26:16] Steve: This year. [00:26:16] Dean: This year, yeah. [00:26:17] Steve: Amazing. [00:26:17] Dean: Yeah. [00:26:18] Steve: What did you learn from, what did you take from it, from that that production? What did you learn? Any new learnings for you? [00:26:23] Dean: What were my, I think one of my, one of my big learnings two big learnings from that production- [00:26:26] Is just straightforward power of joy. It Grease is a really joyous show. You come out of it smiling you're clapping, you're singing, you're dancing, you're just having a really positive time. And obviously I know that joy and happiness are important, but when you see it- ... 20 times, 'cause I went, I saw the show 20 times. [00:26:43] And I still, I was still d- I was still enjoying Grease lightning on my 20th time. Genuinely and the power of joy I think is really important. And then also I think is really important is understanding that we are not just entertainment businesses, and Grease probably taught me this better than anything else. [00:26:57] We're not just entertainment businesses. We are also hospitality businesses, right? And getting that hospitality stuff right is I think really where Grease- mana- managed to kinda get to that next level is getting that hospitality stuff right [00:27:12] Steve: In what way? [00:27:13] Dean: Getting the drink service right, getting the seating right, having the great front of house staff getting g- having there to be, like, themed food that worked with the film ... and having the kinda pre-show that work- that worked well for all of that. I think the hospitality side of Grease, yeah, was a real success, and understanding that's the kind of night out you're providing people. [00:27:31] Steve: Yeah. Do you know do you know the book Unreasonable Hospitality? [00:27:34] Dean: I do not, actually. [00:27:35] Steve: Please read it. I will do It's amazing. But the author of that he- his business, he actually just designed the hospitality for the latest recent NASA Moon visit. [00:27:44] Dean: Oh, really? [00:27:44] Steve: So they actually redesigned from a hospitality lens- [00:27:47] And they applied some really subtle things in in, in the journey- ... of, for the astronauts. Fascinating. Yeah Even just subtle lexicon, like language from- ... "copy that" to "you're welcome." [00:27:57] Dean: Yeah [00:27:58] Steve: Love- lovely little tweaks like that. So I think hospitality plays a big... It does play a big part, actually. [00:28:02] Dean: It does, and it's interesting. One of my best friends, he works in Michelin star restaurants- ... in Denmark. [00:28:07] Steve: Nice [00:28:07] Dean: And he told me, we were having a conversation one day, and he was telling me about his service principles, and his service principles read like experience design. And he is, and I've ne- I've never p- talked to anyone in experience design who's thought of this, and I know I'm gonna... [00:28:18] I now say it all the time, but he goes, "Every evening every night someone has with us, it's, has peaks and troughs. You're gonna have an amazing glass of wine, which is up here, and you're gonna pay for the bill, which is down here." And he said, "Our job as the service staff is to make sure those peaks are as high as possible and to smooth out those troughs and make sure that those dips are as, in, are as unnoticeable as they can be or make sure they don't happen at all, and really smooth that so it's up and up." [00:28:48] Yes It is, it... And, you can do all sorts of things that... And he says, it's, it, he says, "And really, it's a really straightforward, silly example, but there's a reason Italian restaurants give you a shot of Limoncello with your bill." Makes you feel less bad about the bill. And and it's thinking about principles like that as well that I think are re- really helpful to experience designers. [00:29:06] Steve: So what else, what's, what else is happening at Secret Cinema right now? [00:29:09] Dean: So bunch of stuff is happening. We've just announced we've just announced our new venue, which is our first permanent location which is gonna be in in Greenwich. And that is gonna be where our sh- where a lot of our shows are gonna sit for the foreseeable. [00:29:19] Unfortunately, I cannot tell you what show is going into it, but we will be announcing it very soon. Hopefully, maybe even by the time this episode is out. [00:29:25] Steve: Okay. [00:29:26] I might even cut something in somehow. [00:29:27] Dean: Yeah. If we c- If we, if you can- [00:29:29] Steve: Quick flash up of [00:29:29] Dean: what it is ... we c- you can, yeah, if you can insert and it's like, "It's this, actually." [00:29:32] But we are I'm not, no, we're not yet at the point of telling you. And then what I'm primarily focused on is about just before I joined, we launched our studio arm, which is Studio Secret Cinema. Which is our, Secret Cinema's first kind of B2B arm. So we're a creative agency with the Secret Cinema talent. [00:29:47] So we offer the Secret Cinema creative and production services to brands, but also other entertainment businesses and working across all sorts of different fields, like events, experiences, creative consultancy, working with theme parks doing all sorts of different things. And so my my, my role primarily is about growing that and getting us in front of in front of as many interesting and different cr- great partners that we could be working with. [00:30:10] We've done some really brilliant projects in the last year. We did a really brilliant project for Netflix over in LA in May o- May of last year, which was for a film called Fear Street: Prom Queen which was fantastic. And we also did some, a lot of brilliant work with a video game company called Supercell. [00:30:22] So we did you, you might know Ashley Wagner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we did their San Diego Comic -Con activation, which was gre- so great to go to San Diego Comic -Con. And we also did their esports finals halftime show, so we brought an in-game K -pop band to life. And we also worked with, we just finished working with Frontier Development, who are a video game company, and they've just done the latest Jurassic World video game. [00:30:43] So we, we brought that to life and were able to build a miniature Jurassic Park in the middle of London, which was, which felt so great. Wow. And that was just up for a few awards recently, which was really great. It was a really great experience. So yeah, so w- what we're trying to do now is get the word out, get people to understand that w- that w- we offer these services. [00:30:59] And I try and say to our potential clients that there's four things that ultimately I think we're really good at and that we know better than most of the people. And that is, one IP fidelity, how to, like, how to bring an IP, how to bring a brand to life in a way that feels novel but also feels faithful. [00:31:13] And number two is engaging with fans. We all the work we do is fans are at the core of it, so engaging with fans is really important. And also live entertainment we, we have been luck, fortunate enough over the 18 years of our existence to work with some of the best artists in the UK, it'd be that singers, dancers, circus performers. [00:31:30] We've got such an extensive network of people. [00:31:32] Steve: Oh, interesting. [00:31:33] Dean: And then finally, world building and cr- creating worlds that audiences really want to belong to and really wanna feel like they're part of, and feel like they're worlds that have that, like- that make them feel like they're part of a community- Yeah [00:31:45] and not just like you faithfully re-created a set. [00:31:47] Steve: Yeah. [00:31:47] Dean: So those are the things I think we as studio are really strong as. And yeah, trying to meet as many interesting people from the world of brands and the world of theme parks and the world of live entertainment- Yeah ... as possible. [00:31:57] Steve: Tell me just for the audience what was... [00:32:00] w- you've been here now a few years. What... Share something that n- typically no one knows about Secret Cinema, working here. [00:32:07] Dean: Oof. Working here? [00:32:09] Steve: Yeah. [00:32:09] Dean: I'll try, I need to... give me a minute, I'm gonna try and think of something really s- It's all right ... something good. [00:32:17] What is something nobody knows? [00:32:19] Steve: Or be surprised to hear. Be like, "Oh." [00:32:25] Dean: Gosh, I'm really struggling. Sorry, b- It's all right. It's all right [00:32:27] Steve: Yeah. [00:32:28] Dean: Give me a second. I- That's [00:32:29] Steve: why we cut [00:32:29] Yeah. [00:32:29] Dean: Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out- No, [00:32:31] Steve: What would... No, yeah. Sure. To the outside world, they go, "God, Secret Cinema," from the industry, and be like, "God, I never knew that." [00:32:36] Yeah. Yeah. What is it? [00:32:38] Dean: I suppose one of the things is how much change there has been at Secret Cinema, I think is- [00:32:42] Steve: Interesting ... [00:32:43] Dean: is, I- is probably a really, it's probably a really big thing. There's... It's been a very i- interesting few years with TodayTix buying us, and now TodayTix themselves being bought and and, Grease being such a big success and that being very transformative. [00:32:56] And it's been very... It's w- it's, we're an incredibly fast-moving business. And it is feeling like it, it feels like it's just changing all the time. [00:33:02] Steve: Yeah. [00:33:03] Dean: In a good way, in a way that's very exciting. Yeah. But it's just "Oh, God, yeah, we were like that, we were like that a year ago. [00:33:07] We're completely different from that now." I d- is that a good answer? [00:33:12] Steve: Yeah, it's good ... [00:33:12] but I guess the pro- what's inter- what I'm hearing there as well the projects keep you on the straight and narrow- ... in the sense of the focus around delivering value for- ... c- clients or the, or, or- Yeah [00:33:21] the audience themselves. [00:33:22] Dean: Oh, I've got a good surpri- ... I've got a good- [00:33:23] Steve: Oh, go on. Oh, it's come now. It's come. It's come ... if- Ask [00:33:25] Dean: him a question. [00:33:26] Steve: I can cut that. I can cut. Yeah. Yeah. I can cut that in. Yeah. It's okay. Question [00:33:29] Dean: and then they'll take it. [00:33:30] Steve: Yeah just for the audience Dean, just for those that we're on the outside of Secret Cinema- like, looking from the outside, always curious- ... about Secret Cinema, given the legacy of the business- ... and the shows that you've put on what would be what would be we'd be surprised to learn about Secret Cinema from your perspective and you working here? [00:33:45] Dean: The thing that surprised me, and the thing that surprised nearly everyone when I say it to them, is how small of a company we still are. [00:33:52] We are, we you think we're 18 years of history, and all the things you've done, you could presume about 100 people work here. [00:33:57] Steve: Yeah. [00:33:57] Dean: But we're a core team of maybe 11. [00:34:00] Steve: Wow. [00:34:00] Dean: Now, 11 phenomenally talented, phenomenally clever people, and obviously that scales up massively when we do a production. [00:34:06] Yeah. But really the core team is quite small and gets an in- a wild amount done for how small the team is. That's [00:34:12] Steve: amazing. [00:34:12] Dean: Yeah. [00:34:13] Steve: I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you need... the talent-wise, you said you've got a huge network. So you plug in and apply what you need as and when. [00:34:19] But that's cool. That nucleus is is really key as well- ... creatively. [00:34:22] Dean: Yeah. For sure. [00:34:22] Steve: I wanna ask you, just pick up on something else that you said earlier, creative excellence. There's something that when you came into Secret Cinema, it, it was very apparent. It was communicated to [00:34:31] Dean: you. [00:34:31] Steve: What does that mean in this context? [00:34:34] Dean: So i- it means a couple of different things. We ha- we have a little pre-show mantra that we do with all of our staff. And one of the lines from that is, "We work together to give our audience the best night out of their year." And I think another company saying that would sound hyperbolic, but we do mean it. [00:34:53] A Secret Cinema show for a lot of people is the best night out of their year. There are people who went to Blade Runner or Stranger Things or whatever years and years ago, who still remember it really fondly who still will be like, "That was an amazing night I have." That is the standard that we hold ourselves to is, and that's always what we're, what, that we're trying to hit. [00:35:13] And creating those amazing wow moments. I don't know if you... Did you see our Star Wars Empire Strikes Back by any chance? [00:35:18] Steve: I didn't see that one, no. [00:35:19] Dean: So there's a moment in that, and I think about this all the time this is like when y- when I see... When you said the word creative excellence to me, this is the image I got. [00:35:25] There's a moment during the trench run at the end of A New Hope the entire audience is in this big kind of trench space, and we flew an X-wing over all of the audience's heads. With, with a crane, with all of these things. And that was a moment of, like- We need to do something truly excellent to be like, "Oh, shit, I really, I am in S- I really am in Star Wars now." [00:35:47] And we're always aiming for those things. We're aiming for things that are unforgettable, that are, that peop- that people r- that people will h- hold onto and will remember for the r- for the rest of their lives. [00:35:55] Steve: Oh, that's amazing. [00:35:56] Who wouldn't love an X-Wing? Come on. [00:35:59] Dean: Yeah. [00:35:59] Steve: Oh, wow. So Dean, we're sitting here today, 2026. [00:36:03] What's the possible, like where's, where are we going right now? We've c- we've talked a little bit obviously about the journey that we're on. We're in the kind of moving out of this potential safety zone that the industry's been in. [00:36:12] What are some of the possible outcomes or ways of, or channels you think we could continue to evolve? What's possible? Where do you think we are? [00:36:19] Dean: Yeah. I think a couple of different things are happening, for sure. Caveat of the global economy and- Oh, yeah ... et cetera, et cetera. I think the f- I think we are going to s- I, I do genuinely believe, provided, again, the higher economy doesn't go sideways, but I do genuinely believe that we are going, we are only at the beginning of this boom in the experience economy, that we... [00:36:38] I do think our best days are still ahead of us, and I do genuinely believe that. Of course. A- and I th- and I think there, I th- I think people are go- I think all of those factors that we talked about earlier of people wanting novelty and wanting real human connection and wanting to get away from tech and their phones to a certain extent, is going to drive more and more people to seeking out novel and interesting experiences. [00:36:59] And I think we as makers have to be ready for that, and be ready to serve those people and bring those people together 'cause I think it's going to be a very, it's gonna be a very exciting time. So I think we'll see stuff like Secret Cinema become even more mainstream than it is now. [00:37:11] I think we're on a, we're on a trajectory to become the sort of immersive, experiential... Sorry. We're on a trajectory to become the immersive, experiential mainstream West End. That's where we're going. But my hope for a- for other things is I hope we see a sort of revival in the middle of the sector. [00:37:27] Because I think at the moment the sector feels very top-heavy. There's a lot of very good, very brilliant companies that have been doing this for nearly 20 years, like us, like Punchdrunk, that sort of thing. But I'd love to see more smaller things. I'd love to see more companies like Phantom Peak, for example. [00:37:42] I'd love to see more people trying stuff out and I think we will see that. I think- ... I think probably VC money needs to get a bit looser and be more willing to fund interesting and exciting things. And hopefully- Yeah ... hopefully it'll do that. [00:37:53] Steve: Yeah. [00:37:53] Dean: But yeah, no, I think we've got a, I think we've got a pretty bright future ahead of us as a sector. [00:37:56] Steve: Yeah. What's you're working on a smaller e- experience yourself at the moment, and maybe this is a representation of that- Yeah ... of these kind of more more niche-y, interesting kind of- [00:38:07] Dean: Yeah, so I'm making, I m- I've- I'm making an experience called Alibi. So this is with my secrets and my hat off- Yes [00:38:11] and my just Dean Rogers hat on. Let's go. So I'm making an experience called Alibi. I'm doing it with my friend Tom Black, who created an experience called Jury Games a couple years ago, which did really well. He's also one of the minds behind Bridge Command. But Alibi is a murder mystery experience for 12 people really small, really intimate, and it's a social deduction game. [00:38:28] So it's all about bringing people together and effectively just giving them the tools to have a conversation and lie to each other and figure out who is lying. The whole thing is kinda like a Traitors meets true crime- ... setup. But it's based off this phenomenon out of China called Jubensha, which is this really massive thing in China that hasn't made its way over here to the West meaningfully yet. [00:38:49] But it's the main thing young Chinese people are doing on their nights out. And it's you'll go to a little cafe and y- there'll be six of you in a group, and you each get a little character booklet, and you read this character booklet, and it tells you everything about your character in the murder mystery. [00:39:02] And then you just talk to the other people around you for the next three hours, trying to solve this murder mystery. And you all know different things, and one of you is the killer, and one, and all the stuff. And it is... It sounds so simple, but it is huge in China. Wow. And i- and where, what it feels to me, what it reminds me a lot of is where escape rooms were sort of 10 years ago, when escape rooms were this weird little thing out of Eastern Europe. [00:39:25] And then suddenly took o- took over the world for a little bit. It feels like that moment again. So we wanna kinda tap into that trend while it's still i- in- Yeah ... its infancy here in the UK at least. Yeah. And launch that. But yeah we ran Alibi for a week last year and it was sold out, and we were listed as one of No Proscenium's best experiences of 2025, which is not bad for only a week. [00:39:45] So we're very excited to give it another outing now. So yeah, it opens next week on the 21st of April at- Amazing ... Theatre Deli in Ledd- Leadenhall Street in- It's [00:39:52] Steve: running longer than a week? [00:39:53] Dean: It's running for four weeks this time. Great. But hopefully, if it does really well, it runs for longer than four weeks. [00:39:57] Let's see. Let's see. But it's been very fulfilling for me to to do a smaller project alongside of it. It's been very... It's been, that's been, like, a really great kind of creative outlet. It's... look, I love doing these huge things for big brands with massive budgets, but there is something genuinely very fulfilling about making something that actually only I and Tom have to think it's good. [00:40:18] It's we have to like it is the, is, is- Yeah ... is the first thing, and that's really nice. And it's also been really nice- And again, when you're doing all of these huge projects, it's really nice to do something where you're like, "Oh, I do actually have to do all of this myself. [00:40:29] I really do have to drive down to Kent this weekend and pick up a couple of chairs and tables so that we've got a set." And it's nice to kinda get back to your roots in that way as well. [00:40:36] Steve: Yeah, it's ni- that resourcefulness that has to come with, Yeah ... with these things. We're feeling it, we're feeling it right now with the podcast. [00:40:42] Dean, thank you so much for inviting us into Secret Cinema. And, No, it's been a pleasure ... and it's been a long time in the making, but it's been really fascinating to hear your journey. How can the how can the audience get in touch with you? What's the best way to contact you, connect with you- [00:40:56] Dean: The best way- [00:40:56] Steve: follow you? [00:40:56] Dean: The best way to, to contact me personally is LinkedIn, so I'm just Dean Rogers on LinkedIn, so find me that way. Follow me there, connect with me there, message me there. That's the best way to do it. [00:41:05] Steve: Fantastic. We'll put all the links obviously in the show notes for everybody, and again, thanks very much, Dean. [00:41:09] Pleasure. Cheers. [00:41:09] Dean: Thank you. Thanks very much. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.