Food Anthropologist: The hidden power of taste & how it shapes who we are

[00:00:00] Steve: Caroline, welcome to the experienced designers. [00:00:04] Caroline: Thank you for having me. It's really exciting to have you here in my kitchen. [00:00:08] Steve: Absolutely. Today we have a very special experience ourselves in Caroline's kitchen in London. So look, firstly, thank you so much for inviting us here. Really grateful for that. [00:00:19] Um, it adds a nice dimension to come out of a studio. Um, and come and talk about something which you know, you are really passionate about. Um, but just kind of as a, as a starting point, what we kind of wanted to talk today about was just in terms of your, your passion and the work that you're doing, how would you kind of describe what you do? [00:00:39] Oh, [00:00:40] Caroline: okay. Start with the most complicated question. Okay. When we have some, maybe we have some time. But, uh, yeah. I am really passionate about experiences rather than actually tangible things. I think this is how we connect with people. This is how we define who we are, and I love having fabulous experiences and [00:01:00] actually modulating them, shaping them, and creating those moments for people that really change their perception, but change their well, touch their soul. [00:01:09] Sounds a bit. Cheesy, but I think it really truly changes you and it's a perfect resetting sometimes as well, how you interact with your environment, how you become more mindful. So, um, as a food anthropologist, um, I love food specifically flavor because I think when it comes to. Experiences, and I do work a lot with other brands and experiences. [00:01:30] Everything is really screen-based and I feel like we have so much overkill on the screens and my eyes seem so tight, and I think everyone eyes feel really tight at the end of the day. And I think it's like that's yet another screen we're looking at. And there are beautiful screen-based exhibitions and experiences and when it comes to immersiveness, but I would. [00:01:48] Doubt that this actually truly immersive, because in order to immerse ourselves, we need to really fully be there, present, and it's not a passive thing. So it really has to impact us. And I think food is, it's almost like the [00:02:00] last bastion. It's like it physically comes inside our body and becomes part of us. [00:02:05] It's like it grows the cells we are living in. So I think that's a really beautiful. Aspects to make it more meaningful, but to anchor it as well. Yeah, [00:02:12] Steve: those two words down. Food and anthropology, [00:02:15] Caroline: I love, like when it comes to food and anthropology, I really like the idea of creating rituals and I've always been fascinated. [00:02:22] So I went to art college to Central Saint Martin, so you always really encouraged to be super conceptual. And I, my main thing, and I realized it's ritual, ritual and habit and habitus, and it's like, what are the habits? And I'm fascinated by people's habits and when you break them, if you like, if you always drink with your right hand or if you over always leave your house. [00:02:41] Going to the right and then you change it. You really make people more alert. You break that habit. And I think it's really fascinating as well to learn that, you know, you can break a habit within 14 days. Loads of sociologists agree with it. And I think that's really interesting when it comes to how can we relearn, and we, and retreats often are 14 [00:03:00] days, you know, when you go to yoga retreat or mindfulness retreats because it does take 14 days. [00:03:05] So are we trained as a food anthropologist? Realizing that rituals and food is my, my main thing and how different cults and religions actually used food and smells and items you would consume to anchor and to create community and actually, well to alienate people as well. But to mark who we are in our identify in, in that, in the bigger scheme. [00:03:26] Like our, like our true being through food. So I think that's really exciting. So it's not about reinventing the wheel, but just using what's already there and how we interact as humans. Um, yeah. And, and, and using that as a toolbox. [00:03:38] Steve: Yeah. I love that this word intentionality is so, it's so prevalent in, in our industry. [00:03:43] It's super interesting and I think food is a fascinating one, I find because it's very habitual for us, all of us, and it's very easy for us to just habitually. Perhaps dismiss food sometimes just as a, in amongst a busyness of life. More functional. Uh, but of course it can be [00:04:00] so much more than that. How, what do you, what this wonderful perspective that you have on food in addition to that? [00:04:05] Caroline: Yeah, I mean it's, it's opposite like often belittled because it feels like an everyday thing because we need to eat. But I love that a lot of travel, you know, like, you know, from. Columbus going to America was driven by greed and like a lot of people exploration and, and explorers was always like, okay, maybe in China there will be noodles. [00:04:24] And I think I quite like that of bringing back certain food items. So I think it's really exciting to think about how food is anchoring ourselves and has always been really like used like in that powerful way. [00:04:38] Steve: Anthropology. So just for those that are not aware of anthropology from a food, but what, what, what is it and how, what have you? [00:04:46] What have you taken from that? [00:04:48] Caroline: It's breaking down who we are through our rituals, through our interactions with other people, through our community. And I think, so it's very important at the moment because obviously a lot of brands, a lot of experiences [00:05:00] try to build community. So I recently was involved in creating, um, a wellness. [00:05:04] Place as well in East London and like we try to commodify community, but it's almost impossible to create a community through a member's club. And, and obviously some, some communities do it really well, but it's something that actually has to grow. So as anthropology is really much the interaction we have and the, you know, obviously when it comes to cults and religions, but just within the family boundaries as well. [00:05:25] And then the idea of creating community within the experience design organization and how you come across people. And I think that's really interesting. The rituals, the science, the secret languages, the codes, and I think decoding and being mindful, all of this gives us an amazing toolbox and a playbook to work and like design experiences to be more mindful of it. [00:05:45] So I think that's interesting when it comes down to it's the anthropology of drinking coffee rather than just the nutritional value of drinking coffee. [00:05:53] Steve: Give us an example of one. Like a ritual, maybe how we could break it down and and extract some learning from it. [00:05:58] Caroline: But I think it's really interesting. [00:05:59] [00:06:00] Obviously when it comes to coffee, a lot of people love to go to a coffee shop and they wait in line with a barista, and often the barista, you know, like they ask for the name, so you're almost being called to the front of the queue. So it has this. Pseudo spiritual, uh, being because you may be asked to come to the front of the queue when your name is called in order for your coffee, um, to be presented to you. [00:06:22] It has obviously huge feelings of communion as well, and obviously the, the ultimate flex of being in, in, like in an urban environment, it's when that barista knows your coffee order already by heart. So you have that familiarity and community building, but it's still a commodity. You're still buying, buying it. [00:06:38] So I think that is really interesting and that explains obviously the huge success of. All these coffee shops where you have 50 people queuing up, but you could just make the same coffee at home. But it's very much about being there with your tribe in the same cube like pilgrim almost. There's a pilgrimage to it. [00:06:53] Yes. So I think it has same like, I think like it draws very heavy on inner society. That's a void of [00:07:00] spirituality and God, I think it's almost people are creating. Rituals in order to fill the, the void in a really interesting way. [00:07:07] Steve: Do you A ritual that Nina and I have at home, when we first bought our apartment in Stockholm, we were very lucky. [00:07:14] It was a brand new apartment and it was quite high up, so we got to see sunrises and sunset. So it was quite a lovely moment to enjoy nature. And, but both of us, we both journal and, and meditate in the morning part of our rituals in the morning. And uh, we, we very intentionally 'cause we love coffee, we very intentionally. [00:07:31] Went out and found a coffee machine. That served the purpose in the sense that I love to experiment with coffee, but Nina wants to just press a button. So we had to find the technology that the, the ability to kind of serve both of us, but also to anchor into our ritual in a morning. And we've had these. [00:07:49] It's very specific chairs that we sit down on. Then we kind of have a coffee and we meditate and journal, and that became part of our every day as part of our own ritual. But from a place my, [00:08:00] well, from our perspective, from a huge place of love for coffee as well. Yeah. [00:08:04] Caroline: But I think that inspires great design and functionality is actually how you interact with it. [00:08:09] It's like the ritual and what, what do you need and how you interact with coffee. And I think then creating that area and creating the space. It's not just the machine, but it's. Space, maybe you wanna smell the coffee like before, and that's really important that that lingers and, and the seed and how you drink it. [00:08:24] And I think that's when it comes to designing an experience and taking people on that journey is very overused, but taking people on that journey is really important to actually deep dive into how people interact with it and what it means to them. Yeah, I agree. That moment and like what, like at what point and, and how much time is dedicated to it and like whether it is just a pure functionality or it can be elevated to something else. [00:08:47] Yeah. So what made you choose [00:08:48] Steve: food? [00:08:48] Caroline: I, well, I'm obviously, I love food and I love eating, and I think it's always really interesting coming. Um, like my mom was a doctor, so she didn't actually cook, but I, I like the idea of how preparing [00:09:00] food was always seen as something really exotic. And the idea of. Like there is just a huge spectacle of creating huge dinner parties of people coming together and creating food that has so much drama and theater to it. [00:09:12] So, um, I quite see it as a choreography of a different, like a theatrical performance. So for me that's how I, I see food and dinner parties and obviously dining experiences as well. And when it comes to food, it is something that, it's the final barrier and that's actually when. When you tell a story and, and you give someone, you make someone eat part of that story, they're really like, it becomes part of them. [00:09:36] So it is something that is that like, it's, it's like a trans sub sensation. Sometimes it's like, almost like pseudo religious or not. It's like, but then like if, if I tell you the story about bananas and maybe Vet Underground or Andy World. And then you eat the banana, you really connect with that story in a different way and it anchors you truly. [00:09:55] The other thing I love about food is that obviously it really holds a lot of rah, you know, like [00:10:00] wine and food. It's like no other food item will taste the same. It hasn't been, you know, like it didn't grow or made in that region. So it's obviously that is something that is really interesting to connect ultimately to a place to have that almost metaphysical connection to something. [00:10:14] When you drink the wine from the area that Terra is used in, in wine production. You could say the same thing to something else. And we all experienced that When you've gone holidays and you're in Italy and you have the most beautiful tomato and you try to recreate that moment in, in England, it just never works. [00:10:29] So it is, it holds so much, it holds ray of sunshine, it holds the earth, it holds the knowledge and, and I think that food, like it's a really beautiful medium to kind of use, use that as an like ingredient. And I think our body reacts obviously to food. But it's very intimate as well. You know, like when I sometimes do, um, dining experiences and ask people to be blindfolded, to open their mouth, there's a lot of trust and surrender for actually allowing someone to place something in your mouth, especially in ours, Don, where you, like you often we are asked, it's very clinical. [00:10:59] Do you [00:11:00] have any allergies? For, um, but you order something in a restaurant, so from a legal point of view. So just to kind of go, I don't know what you're putting there. It is very intimate and I said that once before. It's like, it's a bit weird, but it's more intimate than sex unless you become pregnant. [00:11:14] It's like something that really stays with you. And if you like sports people, their hair STRs get tested. Be just if they had too much caffeine because it really becomes part of your body and I think food really is, therefore, yeah, it's obviously harder to play towards a bigger audience because when you have obviously a screen, you can have 3000 people come through a second, like something like the internet or you know, frameless. [00:11:36] It really can play towards something else. But I think now that everyone is more interested in immersive experiences playing towards, in like we had audiences of a thousand as well. It is really. Interesting to have everyone eat some communion of sort. Yeah. [00:11:50] Steve: What's your favorite kind of experience that you've been involved with? [00:11:53] Caroline: Um, one of my favorites was actually really early on, was in a, um, secret Masonic [00:12:00] temple in London where we didn't really like, disclose the location of almost kidnapped people and, um, had them picked up by car so they didn't actually know where they were going while blindfolded and masked and they had a full dinner in, um. [00:12:12] In this temple and, but they knew that actually I created it. So, but I still have, 20 years later people come up to me saying, like, I was at that dinner. It's really changed me. So I think that's really beautiful because of the Yeah. Intentionality, but the meaningful and the long lasting or something in such a fast paced life that people still remember 20 years later how they felt. [00:12:31] And the thing it is playing with a lot of elements of surrender, not knowing, not knowing who the other guests were, but because they all knew that I curated it at the time. So when they recognized the names, it's like. Pin to dinner. It's like, where do you mean? It's like, well, I don't know where, I don't know what happened, but I was there and I, I love, I love that. [00:12:47] But every single one is different. So I think it's like, the nice thing is you don't have to repeat yourself because you don't run a restaurant. So every time it's not always food based. It's like, I think, but I think I love when all the sensors come to play and you really kind of [00:13:00] get people out of the comfort zone. [00:13:01] And obviously food is for good or bad, something that you can easily poke out of the comfort zone with. Obviously I like working with. Immersive wellness as well, but you have to literally turn up the heat and a sauna to get people out of the comfort zone. While with food, you can give something unknown or maybe slightly borderline fermented in order to create. [00:13:19] Yeah. Quite extreme responses. [00:13:21] Steve: Yeah. How do you think about when you create an experience like that, how do you think about like the experience scape? Like do you have like a structure to it? Are there certain elements that there, not necessarily a repetition, but there's a core foundational thought or approach that you, that you take as part of the that work? [00:13:38] Caroline: I always break it down into three different archetypes. It's like, because there's some people who like to follow rules and there's some people who are more questioning, and then there's just the medium bed. So you can almost assume. So I really like to really think through how your experience makes people feel. [00:13:53] And then obviously you can only assume that the majority of people. But then I really like to play towards the outliers. The people are more [00:14:00] cynical, the people and how do you break them? Mm-hmm. Or that they, obviously, people almost guess that in the western world most, or if you, if you learn how to that to read from left to right, that you would follow it going clockwise around a big room. [00:14:12] Or you can see that as well in an airport. While obviously in a world where accustom to reading right to left, you would go the other way around, but obviously it is almost taking everyone in and making everyone walk the same way and being aware of cultural differences. Maybe that's where anthropology comes in. [00:14:27] It's like the idea of maybe like using sound to make everyone go. Clockwise in a room, maybe through smell or like through sound. And I think that's really powerful to really break it down into different behaviors because obviously they're much more, you know, like union archetypes or different behavior archetypes because obviously it's very important to, to have in mind how do you, what is the end result? [00:14:47] What do you want to make people feel? How do you get there? But then based on different archetypes. Because people are different. Yeah. But you can almost, it's what is beautiful and really nice, how you can break it down to very simple overlapping archetypes. [00:15:00] Yeah. So the, yeah, the people pleaser or the, the renegade [00:15:03] Steve: rebels. [00:15:03] Similar museums. Right. The swimmers, skimmers and divers. That's quite similar. Yeah. Interesting. Let's talk about sensory, um, obviously food and taste and, and smell, but also sound and, and yeah. Images and everything. Bringing it kind of all together. How do you. How do you factor that in? How do you play with that, with those different elements? [00:15:21] Caroline: Well, I, my, my favorite thing is when you really change and you, you like really alter people's perception. And I think in order to do this, if you surprise people take them out of the comfort zone, suddenly their mind is altered and everything is more like, oh god, okay, that's so wide and that feels really heavy. [00:15:37] And just drawing attention towards that. So. Maybe like a, a mindfulness exercise on steroid. And I really like how the senses interact and I think the, the cross modalities between the senses, you know, how much music can really, not manipulate, but modulate and nuance what we taste or how we perceive taste and how you can really bring, bring it out. [00:15:56] So obviously, like talking about. Seaweed. It's, it's [00:16:00] nice of the sea. It is anchored within the terra of the sea and, but actually how there's a certain mouthful. So it's really dry and almost clawing on your tongue. And how can you create sounds that contract that, and work almost as a condiment, not just as a background music. [00:16:13] So it's not like, of course you can have Mexican food and listen to Mexican music. There's nothing wrong with that. It might be cultural appropriation, but that's a different thing. But how do you gonna create the perfect. Soundscape to make seaweed, to really bring all your attention to it and actually almost made that experience of eating seaweed the best experience ever. [00:16:30] So it's like, so, so I've been working a lot with unusual ingredients and we kind of be had bespoke soundscapes and I've worked with lots of other amazing sound. Designers and DJs. And so, because obviously that's a really beautiful interest in immersive experience design at the moment, and but how can you really alter, alter that and how do you add a certain, yeah, like almost make music as a special condiment to kind of add the flavor or like the sound? [00:16:55] Well, like, well actually the act of eating changes the way you perceive music, and I find that really [00:17:00] fascinating. Tell [00:17:00] Steve: us more about that. [00:17:01] Caroline: Sound has a really huge impact, the way that almost packaging is designed. So it's like, obviously when you open a pack of crisps. They, they don't need to be the designed so loud, but obviously that added crunch makes them feel fresh and crunchy. [00:17:13] Yeah. So that's almost factored in. It's like they could be in some like completely different packaging. So if you actually eat crisp that are not in the packaging, the perception would be that they taste ever so slightly staler. So I find that really interesting. So a lot of the, the, the crunch element has that, and then there are certain foods that coffee that lie on. [00:17:31] Same. It's equally bitter or sweet, but if you listen to music that brings out sweetness, which is like a high frequency, you perceive it as sweeter. And if you have a low frequency, then it, you can, it brings out a bitterness in the same taste, and I think that's something that is fascinating because it's universally true. [00:17:48] But if you watch a movie, then you have the bad, come on. You have a very low frequency and there's obviously. Straightaway communicating you's, like there's something dark, bitter, and dangerous coming. And then if you have the good person, that angelic [00:18:00] person, it's ac by really beautiful, like, you know, high notes and easy melodic music. [00:18:05] So I think you can almost, yeah, prompt people and almost yeah, modulate towards it. And I think it's fascinating. And the first time I heard this, it's like, oh, that's not possible. And um, yeah, so I was really excited about. [00:18:17] Steve: And tell me, so we have on the table here, we have some items that I think [00:18:21] Caroline: prepared a little dinner. [00:18:22] We're gonna lunch [00:18:24] Steve: Seawee. What, what, what, just out of interest, like what, what could, what could we imagine now in terms of sound sounds? [00:18:31] Caroline: I have a sound. Here I can play you. Amazing. Um, I think obviously the, yeah, so as I mentioned before, seaward is really dry. It's an interesting one because it's completely vegan. [00:18:42] And what I really like, if you listen to certain soundscape, how much it can take taste like fish. And obviously that is for me, working with bigger brands and experiences, obviously on that individual agreeance. But if you need to shift from a sustainable point of view into eating fish and over fishing, how can we actually change eating [00:19:00] behavior on a bigger. [00:19:01] Scale. So I think that's interesting. So I have a soundscape here. I prepared, uh, for you, you could listen to. And obviously maybe we, uh, do you wanna close your eyes [00:19:10] Steve: Sure. [00:19:10] Caroline: During that? And I, [00:19:12] Steve: okay. So just, just for those that aren't watching on video, what, what do we have on the table? We are in a beautiful kitchen here in Caroline's kitchen. [00:19:20] So it's, we're in a very, very nice long table. How many seats? Eight seats. Yeah. High ceilings. It's a beautiful space. [00:19:28] Caroline: So the, the first course on our menu today, what we have prepared here is a, a sheet of nori. So for listeners, obviously you can recreate that as well and we can share that. So if you place the seaweed on, onto your tongue, but then try not to do anything. [00:19:43] And I'm gonna play you close your eyes. Um, ideally yes. Okay, I'll do that. And then it dissolve on its own like accord. Don't do anything.[00:20:00] [00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:22:47] Steve: That was wild. Wow. [00:22:51] Caroline: It's curious. That's what I'm like, I'm like, I love of the security. Okay. But this just so, [00:22:56] Steve: so this is crazy. Okay, so I, how do I even describe [00:23:00] this? So firstly, immediately transported to like a, yeah. Like a, what do you call it, like a seaside town with fishermen and, uh, boats and things like that? [00:23:10] Not really. And then as we went and then with the water as it went. The water went up and increased with the waves. The taste deepened, so it got super deep. I can't explain it, like enhanced. It just went super. And as we carried on in the water, 'cause obviously I think we were under the water, weren't we? [00:23:29] And it, and it as if it kind of almost lifted perfectly with the, with the music towards the end. It is crazy. [00:23:36] Caroline: Mm-hmm. But it, working with it, we had like this parameters like the estimated consumption time. So the moment you go underneath the water at the moment, you need to go underneath the water. That's the moment that the saliva comes almost into play in your mouth. [00:23:48] So it's really bizarre that sensation. So again, it's an approximation, but so it's designed, so at first it sits on your tongue and then you're on the thing. And then suddenly as your body managed, like to kind of almost sense saliva into [00:24:00] your mouth, because it's so dry and clawing, that's when you go underneath the water. [00:24:04] So it's like usually that happens. You can almost estimate at the same time. So you have that weird sensation of being dragged into the water sometimes. It's like the, that's amazing. So it's interesting how you can map out the space and like, you know, color sound, because obviously you bring that to the table because assuming that you've been to a seaside, so that's like, it's a Proust in memory like response that you, like, you bring all of that. [00:24:27] Seaside comes out of your own like draw and like you bring people, bring that to the table. So it's interesting, it's [00:24:32] Steve: essence, it wasn't just the flavor, it was really that element was also, just to add into this in terms of me, there's a piece here as well as you were talking about the audience, um, the different, the different archetypes of the audience. [00:24:44] So although I'm into experiences, I had to also let go for a minute as well. I recognize internal as I know just let go, go with this. Like it's, this is great [00:24:52] Caroline: food. It's not like something on the screen. People are more willing to interact. Food. It's like, what am I supposed to do? And obviously it's a very natural response. [00:24:59] Steve: [00:25:00] Yeah. [00:25:00] Caroline: Because obviously it's like, I'm not sure what it is. It's like, I like that because obviously it's not allergenic. So you can work with like something like this, you can play towards a thousand people or it's obviously, but it's amazing how it actually tastes like fish. It did. It is like, so people really like go like, oh, but there's fish in there. [00:25:14] Like, well no seaweeds. I think it's a really beautiful, [00:25:17] Steve: it's a very way of, it does. It's very fishy. [00:25:19] Caroline: Yeah. But like, because often people ask like, oh, you know, it sounds really self-indulgent. What are immersive experiences and what's. The application. So for me it's working. I was, um, lucky to work, um, like there was a government food campaign, so it's like, how can you actually apply a lot of these? [00:25:33] Experience like, like immersive experiential knowledge on a to a bigger scale. So I think that's really interesting. [00:25:39] Steve: Can I just ask whether you, whether you know this, I, I just curious what happened, what was happening to me biologically as a human, as I'm engaging with the just simple thing of putting sea within my mouth and listening to music. [00:25:52] 'cause it's a beautifully simple example, but there's so much complex. [00:25:55] Caroline: Yeah, I think it's like, definitely like it, it's kind of almost like a co [00:26:00] pollination of of, of both things because obviously the seaweed unlocked nuances. Obviously this, we should have had a, like a real Dolby surround speaker system, but um, and unlocked nuances in the music. [00:26:12] That you wouldn't have listened to before, because obviously it helps the music. It's like it becomes a multisensory show. Mm-hmm. And weirdly, the seaweed helps you almost experience the, the sound almost on your tongue. So it's like a full body experience, because usually, like, see, hearing something, it's, again, sound is really powerful, but it, it becomes more than the sum of its part. [00:26:32] Yeah. Like in Germany, say it's like, so it's like it's, it's more like one plus one meg. Because otherwise you have the music and then you. Seaweed. And then the music really brings out nuances of the, of the seaweed. So you have obviously the mouth feel, the texture and the terror and it, it plays to all three, like the idea that you go up because it's obviously not a linear piece. [00:26:50] So you go, it has a beginning, middle, and end. So you stand on the beach and you go into the water, you dive right underneath the wave, and then you come back out again. So it is like humans respond really well to a [00:27:00] little journey if even like however simplistic it is. So it's not just because obviously you could just have linear, abstract. [00:27:05] C. C sound, but then it wouldn't be because you want to go into that and obviously you then like project your own experiences of being in the seaside. I mean, some people say actually whether you have fear of drowning, so it actually can have weird trauma response. So I had some people it's like, oh my God, I like almost drowned once as a teenager. [00:27:22] And that really brought that back and it's like, okay, that's very powerful how that can be unlocked. Yeah. But it, it cross pollinates. It's like one or the other. I'm not sure sometimes what leads with, which some people obviously are very much taste driven. Yeah. Or music driven. But I think it's. It's, it's beautiful because it really, you're right in between the two. [00:27:37] So it hangs in that in between space. I mean, we [00:27:40] Steve: can trick our brain, right? It doesn't know, doesn't, doesn't know the diff the difference between what's real and not real. How, yeah. [00:27:44] Caroline: And I think that's really powerful and I think in order to, when it comes through virtual reality and things, and I think having then food really anchors it and makes everything more real because it really, it's happening in your own mouth. [00:27:55] So I think often our brain is so overused by true visuals and over like visual. [00:28:00] Sonic STI stimuli so that we don't really, we have to filter that out in order to survive. It's like the idea of have to stop looking, but when it comes to food, because obviously there's a danger of being poisoned as well. [00:28:10] So I think food is fascinating. It's like the bastion where we still have agency because you can still decide that you open your mouth. Well, the onslaught of sound and visuals is very, um, you don't really have agency to stop, to stop it. [00:28:21] Steve: Underrepresented, isn't it? In the fit, in the Its, but that, that for me is opportunity always. [00:28:26] Caroline: Yeah, I think it's, but I think it's always been used. So I think the ultimate, you know, like anchor point to most world religions and even smaller cults is actually, or like the cult of the barista coffee thing is, is always actually the food element is almost the most. It's underrepresented, but I think it's the core element. [00:28:44] Steve: Yeah. What else do we have? What [00:28:46] Caroline: have, well, I think the only way to follow this up is, uh, with a, a bit of a, I think what is interesting is that because we are now deep diving into like flavor and taste and texture, a lot of people, I think when it comes. Down to, they don't actually know how to [00:29:00] describe taste or when it comes down to describing whiskeys or wine, because I think people are a bit unsure are they describing flavor or taste. [00:29:07] I think it's just really interesting how even our nose comes into play as well, because obviously that sound, but now smell is. So much of how we perceive taste as well. And we all had that experience of, you know, you have a cold and suddenly you crave chili because everything else tastes a bit bland or for some obscure reason. [00:29:23] Everyone, you know, every time you're airborne, everyone love the idea of tomato juice or like a bloody Mary tastes really good. So there's something interesting and, and you're hearing when it comes to taste. So, uh, we are just gonna try to, um, taste cinnamon, but maybe if you just close your nose Yeah. [00:29:37] Fully. Okay. So no air comes through. Absolutely. And then I'm gonna put some cinnamon maybe on the bag. And then if you just lick it [00:29:49] and then open, open the nose. [00:29:56] Steve: Oh my God, [00:29:59] Caroline: this is [00:30:00] amazing. Yes. Cinnamon is just flavor. It's just our nose tastes this. What we think we taste is actually our nose taste. It's just amazing to what extent our nose are all factory system is, uh, is actually creating that sensation of taste. So it's interesting, [00:30:15] Steve: very multi like mi minute, second, this feeling of like, yeah, because you [00:30:20] Caroline: don't trust your senses. [00:30:21] Like it's almost like a bit of a trippy about that. And then [00:30:24] Steve: it was like, oh, what was that? Oh. What? Oh, wow. [00:30:26] Caroline: Yeah, so I think it's, it's fascinating. Okay, try [00:30:29] Steve: this trick at home. It's very good. [00:30:31] Caroline: It's really simple, but I think it really helps you identify as well, like reading, and obviously a lot of in wine tastings or whiskey tastings, people do that, that you can actually really trust your nose and it's like, obviously you know what, that must looks really pompous when it comes to like the idea of what's the nose in something. [00:30:46] But actually there's so much. In like our nose. And I think like when it comes to creating experiences as well, it's like something like subconsciously what we taste, but we think like, oh, I think the real underrepresented thing is obviously the smell. [00:30:58] Steve: And also that placement [00:31:00] of that smell in the journey is quite interesting and part of an interface when people arrive. [00:31:04] It could be like a palette, cleanser to the outside world is then they enter into a a food engagement type service. Yeah. [00:31:10] Caroline: But I think we all. You send to almost rate our own immersive experiences, I think is really interesting how the veil of scented candles skyrocketed. It is like the thing, everyone who is incent candles, like we're all willing to spend 50, 60, or 70 quid for it, but because we and then obviously have a different scented candle for the evening or the morning or the, so they are, it's interesting how people actually use in their private habitat and actually a lot of restaurants do it as well. [00:31:34] It's like the idea of using scent as something is. Part of the experience, but time-based different ones as well. Yeah. I [00:31:39] Steve: actually saw that there was a, there's a business in Europe somewhere, Sanofi, I think it is. They're really big on, on employee experience design, but they're really going in on it. Like, really, I'm very impressed with the BA A, the investment and the team. [00:31:52] Um, but all this intentionality to the experience they want to have for their employees. However, I noticed the other day that they actually created their own scent [00:32:00] in for their, uh, offices. And they actually did a whole experiment and chose one. So it is a very, I [00:32:04] Caroline: think so. I think the office has the smell of something. [00:32:07] It's like the idea of, you know, air smells of something. There is a real recognizable scent. So these days I think there are brand designers, and actually I worked on project as well where people really create a different scent. But like it's, it's not just the one scent, like maybe there's a scent for, I love that the non-linearity that the perfect morning then is more refreshing rather than the evening one. [00:32:24] And I think that's interesting how, especially restaurants, they really like alter that as well. [00:32:29] Steve: Yeah. How else have you played with this as well with. Smell and taste [00:32:33] Caroline: well obviously, because when people, when talk about flavor, there's something really interesting as well as like when it comes to coffee and because I was working on a project well at the moment with EEG data and, um, the actual impact of drinking coffee to our brain is. [00:32:46] The moment we smell it, not when we actually consume it, so we think we actually physically need the coffee, but they wake up and smell. The coffee moment actually happens the moment you hold onto your cup and it's really close and then you smell it. This is the moment if you've been conditioned to drink coffee, that your [00:33:00] brain is awake. [00:33:00] That's the moment you wake up. So it's actually really interesting how smell is, you don't actually have to drink the coffee. So it's like in order to have that feeling of being woken up or your brain activity, you're triggering, maybe your body still needs a coffee for other reasons, but in order to trigger that brain activity to wake yourself up, it's a smell. [00:33:16] But I think that's really fun. [00:33:17] Steve: Wow. Yeah. Opening our, our world, hopefully a listeners world right now with this. This is amazing. What else do we have on the table that. Curious about [00:33:24] Caroline: the last thing on the menu is a, it's a simple banana. I think it's just because, um, talking to you, I thought like, it's really interesting just because breaking the habitat and the habitus and being really different with, with like how we used to do it and having that in optionality. [00:33:39] It's not just about the complicated ingredient, it's more about how we get to it. So I thought it might be really interesting to maybe put a blindfold on and, um, eat a banana, uh, have these forks, which I once. Made. So they obviously, it's just fun to actually have different dining implements as well. So just to ivana with a, explain this, explain this, this fork [00:33:58] Steve: fries.[00:34:00] [00:34:00] Caroline: Um, there are different fors I like, I called them heaven or hell, and it's based on a really old parable. The idea of. Of that. And in, in, in a land far away, people instead of arms had, um, like forks and in, in one version people learn how to feed each other. And in one they tried forever to, to reach the food with themselves. [00:34:20] And I thought that's really nice. Without mentioning the back parable, I just once created them for the dinner party. And it was interesting how on some evenings people fed themselves and um, and then some it was in the gallery and then some evenings depending on the mood as well. So people started just realizing it's much easier if you feed the person opposite. [00:34:37] So hence calling them the heaven and health folks. So love. It's interesting. So it's like the whole infinite Yeah. Playing with all the elements when it comes to eating. So I think it's like my thing, it's not food itself, but it's the act of eating. Yes. Or the act of experiencing eating and coming together and the community and how it hold almost holding communion and bringing, bringing things together and dislikes. [00:34:57] I love that. The best bonding is when people say like, oh my God, [00:35:00] I hate. So and so, like whatever food items it is. I think I have whole friendships based on active dislike of certain foods as well. Overdone meat or something like this. And I think that that holds a lot of potential. I think whole feuds in some families are based because people do that Turkey wrong. [00:35:15] So I think that's, I quite like the, the anger when it comes to food because the emotion when it comes to it. Should we get some knives? [00:35:21] Steve: Sure. Yeah. Let's do it. If [00:35:23] Caroline: you, um, pop the blindfold on, and I think I, we could make that even a game show. Who's gonna finish the banana first? [00:35:31] Steve: Oh my. Okay, let's do it. [00:35:33] Caroline: No pressure, no. [00:35:34] Choose your weapons. [00:35:37] Steve: Oh, hang on. Oh my God. Can you just, uh, unthink it? Just use your hands to [00:35:43] Caroline: Nope, no hands. [00:35:45] Steve: Oh, you're not, no hands at to, not even to, [00:35:50] I don't even think I've got the knife the right way round. [00:35:58] Okay. I got something.[00:36:00] [00:36:07] Caroline: I see this. No choking is at your own risk. Okay. I think, [00:36:16] Steve: is Caroline like an expert? She's already like, [00:36:21] Caroline: I'm not sure we're gonna have the skin. Uh uh. No. There was nothing there. [00:36:29] Oh God. [00:36:33] Steve: Hang on. Alright, come on. Come on, Asha. Oh, you could do it. I did. [00:36:46] God. Right. Hang on. I'm gonna have to go. I can hear me now in cases. No.[00:37:00] [00:37:00] Wow. [00:37:09] No, I have got, I've definitely got some skin off there. [00:37:16] Caroline: You can eat the skin as well. Like, you know, like you, I think you would still wear. [00:37:22] Steve: Come on. [00:37:23] Caroline: Can hear, [00:37:25] Steve: can't get. [00:37:26] Caroline: You. Almost have to use your hearing. Here's [00:37:30] Steve: all, hang on. Yeah. [00:37:35] Caroline: Oh, oh, I have skin. Yeah. Oh. Unless you have some skin in the cake. God. Okay. I'm cheating. I'm using the hands now. [00:37:44] Steve: Okay. I'm gonna join you. Hang on. Let So kind of remnants of a banana is left on my, okay. I'm gonna, so [00:37:50] Caroline: I think I definitely clearly win. [00:37:53] Steve: Oh wow. Look at that. Stay at that. Oh, that's hilarious. [00:38:00] So what's the reflection from that? [00:38:02] I think I, I got to that my brain's kind of hurting on the side. [00:38:08] Caroline: I think it's quite good. People say you're supposed to, obviously always go outside that comfort zone, interact with things on a different way. But what I, my point here being is like, it's. It's really interesting to, to have the, like, you know, banana something so bleedingly simple. [00:38:22] You don't have to do something complicated, but it's almost the experience of eating the banana. So it's not about the banana. So my interest is the experience of eating the banana and giving people an experience they never had before. So it doesn't have to be so complicated. That's what I'm trying to. I think it's like, or like kind of just share, like, it's just really funny and it's like the idea of, but it makes you taste immersing the banana into yourself, but like ITing yourself in the texture of the banana. [00:38:46] So the whole thing. Fantastic. And it becomes more memorable. It's a really fun thing. I, I'm crying, [00:38:50] Steve: I'm genuinely crying with laughter. That was absolutely fantastic. There's, um, by the way, every household should have one of these. For sure. This is awesome. [00:39:00] I love that. It, it, it, it became, it kind of became, yeah, there's a competition bit, kind of kicks in, but it kind of also a, a puzzle to figure out, which is really interesting. [00:39:09] Caroline: Yeah. You almost says it becomes really tactile in a different way. You use all your senses and obviously that taste is the pay of, but then you're already aware of that, the smell of the banana when you open it and the, and you almost have to use your sense of hearing. It's like, okay, am I hearing it right? [00:39:22] So it's a, it's like a multisensory really simple thing. So it's like, obviously I like. And I'm very lucky as well to work with a stage design, dining experiences, and immersive experiences. But I think it, it is really interesting just to kind of strip it down and actually work. Like how can we push the limit with the simplest ingredients possible? [00:39:39] Steve: So Carolyn, tell me a little, let, let's kind of, while I kind of bring my brain back down to, uh, yeah, the podcast. Um, let me just think of a, where we go now. 'cause that was brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is cool. Yeah. So as we kind of like, uh, widen the lens from Yeah, this kind of experiential food into maybe more into the business end, into creating events and [00:40:00] these types of things, what, what, what's been kind of your experience in that? [00:40:02] What have you kind of brought to the table? Have you got any examples you can share with us? Um, [00:40:07] Caroline: yeah, it's, it's really interesting because obviously working with. You can always, obviously clients are always really adamant of working with food and obviously you have the hurdles of legal going through it all, but once all of that trust is there and they surrender to your creative like, I don't know, insanity ideas, it's really fun and I think it's really good because then you become opposite. [00:40:28] If you wanna create memorable brand activations, it's actually really powerful. And, and to create that. So obviously that's the joy of obviously at the moment working in, at the moment with reduced costs. Obviously you can like reach much, much more people, more fewer people in a much more meaningful way, and I think that's really powerful. [00:40:47] Steve: And you don't need, you don't need like huge, necessarily huge budgets necessarily. Um, because obviously Yeah, you [00:40:54] Caroline: think about scaling that up on a bigger thing, like with projections with the whole thing. Yes. Um, but I think it is interesting. I [00:41:00] think it's like when it comes to, you know, or like when it come, yeah, food advertising, drinks advertising, but just general experiences people are willing to, to, because I think everyone has been onboarded. [00:41:09] So now I think everyone has obviously like already kind enough, there's such a hunger part in the, but for these kind of experiences to go outta such your comfort zone to to, I don't know, eat something while sweating in the sauna while listening to weird things, while being exposed to stroke lighting. [00:41:25] That people are really craving that and they're happy to sign away every single wave just in order to feel more and to, to have like a change, mind altered experience or like being more aware of their mind body access. So I think food is a really. Fabulous way to play with that. So I think it's a, it's a nice time to be in that area as well because I think the general public is really up for it. [00:41:45] And I think it's like they've been almost universally onboarded and everyone's like, give us more. And they want to be pushed to the limit, I think probably to kind of create content for their own stuff that's not easily replicatable. And there's a hunger for everything needs to be more [00:42:00] provocative, more cross, more out there. [00:42:01] Steve: Where's the, where's the opportunities? Well, around accessibility for this as well in terms of the general public, shall we say. Um, you know, the where to kind of weave this into the everyday while the opportunities there [00:42:13] Caroline: opposite, you can share that easily through social media. I mean, when it comes to sound files, it's really fabulous to share through like, you know, like iq, like QR codes. [00:42:22] And, you know, you could have a, and I worked with Sainsbury's before when it comes to cheese, where we actually like created the soundscape of the, the heritage and the terror of the individual cheese so people could easily download it in the supermarket. So we beca like, it became like your sonic cheese monger. [00:42:37] Um, so that's actually funny on the biggest scale, but obviously when it comes to the at home. Experience as well. It's like the idea of the reason we grade and have around in order to break barriers and to forge connection and great community. And often people forget that. It's like, it's not about proving how amazing you are as a cook, it's just about just having a good laugh around the table. [00:42:55] So I think that's a, and food is often the, the icebreaker and food is obviously being [00:43:00] used for centuries in that way. And the reason we don't have sharp knives and every time she orders. Steak, uh, in a restaurant, they have to make a big song and dance of bringing you the, the knife is because traditionally it's where we leave weapons and sharp knives behind. [00:43:13] So that's why, um, knives at a table are usually very, they're not sharp and they're intentionally not sharp because this is where we come together to break back. So I think that's interesting. So actually the very moment you like, the only time you need to like have a sharp knife, they actually bring it out, but only for that moment, then they take it away. [00:43:28] And I quite like that. Sentiment as well. So yeah, like at home obviously you can, uh, woo people with those walks ask them to eat the banana blindfolded and, and do their things. But I think it remember as well, like good is a moment of rating things and understanding something about where people come from, their story, their culture as well. [00:43:47] Because you know, you eat their food and you kind of connect with them on a really beautiful. Yeah. Metaphysical level. I think that's a really important thing. [00:43:54] Steve: Very, just in terms of, uh, a closing reflection that we can kind of perhaps co-create or [00:44:00] share, what would you, what would you like to impart on the audience today? [00:44:03] Yeah. To, to, to, from just this wonderful ex. Kind of discipline or lens that you have through a food lens, what would you like to impart or share? [00:44:12] Caroline: I think the one thing, I mean obviously it's up to people, but people are craving a lot of mindfulness and awareness and they're seeking it out through, uh, quite complicated retreats and things. [00:44:22] And I think it, when it's not internalized and it doesn't come within you, you can almost start seeking it with drinking water in a certain way or coffee in a certain mindful way and interacting with really. Simple food items. And when it comes to flavor, noticing that in a much more meaningful, mindful way, which I think is more sustainable, it's financially sustainable, environmentally more sustainable, and you know, like physically as well, more sustainable. [00:44:45] So I think that's a really interesting way forward. I think just. Yeah, because it starts small rather than waiting the mind, like you don't need to almost start with a YaaS, like in order, I think that should be the, the final bastion rather than like changing, like you, like having that mind altering experience while [00:45:00] listening to a soundscape with, with like eating seaweed could give you a certain amount of, you know, like micro dosing on that awareness. [00:45:07] Steve: Yes. Journey. Yeah. Caroline, thank you so much. Um, I really appreciate that you've messed with my chemistry set today. Um, I've absolutely loved coming into your kitchen today, spending time with you, um, in your natural habitat. Very kind. I'm so grateful. And, um, the seaweed, I think just a quick reflection back, I think there's this really interesting thing around just bringing more intentionality to food, period. [00:45:32] I think you're right. I think the, in the experiential world, there's a lot of emphasis. Some visuals and I think food can play an even bigger part, I think, in terms of bringing so much more value to people. So, um, I think this is a wonderful showcase of that and thank you so much and, um, very grateful for you joining podcast. [00:45:48] Caroline: Wonderful to have you to, to share, share this, this food item. Thank you. It's been [00:45:53] Steve: amazing. Thank you so much. [00:45:55] Caroline: Thank you for letting me win the banana. [00:45:58] Steve: You won that one Farer square for [00:46:00] sure. Um, but Karen, thank you so much and um, thank you. Thank you. [00:46:06] So.