James Warren - Empathy at Scale. The Future of Story-Driven Insights

Steve Usher (00:00) So James, welcome to the experience designers. James Warren (00:03) Thank you so much Steve, I'm really glad to be here, appreciate it. Steve Usher (00:06) Yeah, a very warm welcome. I'm super excited because we've got you have such an interesting and unique perspective on some really interesting things that are very experience based. ⁓ But in particular, I think where I'd like definitely like to start ⁓ is this word storytelling. ⁓ And let's unpack that from your perspective in terms of what that means. What has it meant to you this word? So far in your life and even into the work that you do as well. James Warren (00:41) That's a wonderful invitation, so thank you for that. I think it's nice to sort of take some time in, as you say, unpack that word, because it has come to mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and sometimes the purest in me wants to say, what you're talking about is not storytelling. But what I realize is people are really, in general, looking at stories as a way of connection, as a way of... really building and strengthening relationships as a way of communicating. And even though maybe the way they do it doesn't follow the architecture of a story the way my brain does, I hold space for that to be a valid way that they approach this concept as opposed to other ways of communicating and connecting and spending time together. But for me, when I think about stories and storytelling in general, I go back to being a kid. I go back to the times when my mom and my dad would literally bring me out in my pajamas in their cocktail parties and say, tell a story. I go by James, but back then I was Jimmy. So it be like, Jimmy, come tell a story. And there was something I had in me that loved the space, especially when we're talking about whether it's imaginative or relating true life experiences, that space to go deeper, to go inward. and outward, sometimes at the same time. And in my professional life, what I really realized is stories are, they're so deeply tied to the human experience. They're so deeply connective in terms of what makes us uniquely human and also what makes us human together. And so whether it's using stories in ancient times as ways of Sharing and transmitting important knowledge like don't go over there. There's danger or this is how we make this you should try it this way ⁓ to much more modern times where I think stories are our Foundational piece for us to to really go back and say hey We're experiencing so much division so much confusion all over the world in our personal relationships at work in the marketplace What's a way we can start to approach each other differently? And in my experience, the story is the way, because I always say, I can argue with your opinions all day long, but I can't argue with what happened to you. I can't argue with your experience. And so the story is a way that we can start to connect and learn from each other and listen to each other in ways that maybe we're not doing so much of in society today. Steve Usher (02:59) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. And how was the form changed from your perspective over that time from, you know, that small child with your parents all the way up to Connor today? How have you seen storytelling changing and evolving out there? James Warren (03:24) Yeah, you know, in my mind, the fundamental aspect of storytelling, or as I even say, story sharing, is the oral tradition. And actually, I don't think that's changed much at all. Everything I see on social, in experiential, in person, in our everyday conversations, this very deeply human experience of orally telling other people what happened to us and how it made us feel and what we maybe learned from that. I don't think that's changed much at all. It definitely hasn't changed in my lifetime. And I don't think it's changed much in the human experience over millennia. So I think a lot of what we're experiencing today are different mediums to access or to create or to share our stories. But even when we're, whether we're writing or filmmaking or we're creating a brand immersion or we're doing organizational engagement, it all comes back to like this, two humans. having a conversation about what happened and how it made him feel. Like nothing can replace that. Nothing can replace this moment when you're telling me what happened to you because I do this, I lean in and I start to pay attention and something gets activated in me. And then when I play it back, the same thing happens usually in the other person. And so I think what we're experiencing now are coming up with more and more creative and technology enabled ways to make that fundamental experience maybe more widely acceptable. That's what we've been doing for the last 20, 50 years with different mediums and tech. But even right now in this moment, think lots of folks are trying to figure out how do we make that connection, that engagement, that experience more easily replicable and scalable without losing the human essence of it. And I think that's a big challenge for a lot of creators in the world today. Steve Usher (05:06) Yeah. Yeah, and just to build on that as well, think something that I've seen, ⁓ which is really exciting as well, is this kind of, this not just kind of storytelling, but this story living and story doing. ⁓ You know, we see Netflix House ⁓ coming up in the US, you know, and I'm fascinated by the form because it's, know, storytelling in the Netflix world is, two dimensional, it's we're looking at a rectangular box and we're being enthralled by some form of maybe Stranger Things for an example, which was an amazing TV series, amazing storytelling. And of course, based in the night, well, started in the 1980s, which is a great era anyway, from a fashion perspective. ⁓ Great choice on that, wasn't it? But also like now that the form, the way they're creating this kind of Netflix house where Stranger Things now you can actually James Warren (05:53) Yes, totally agree. ⁓ Steve Usher (06:06) live that story and the form is changing and the way we engage and immerse ourselves in stories ⁓ is also becoming more immersive and becoming way more exploratory. Technology is playing a big part. What do you also see on that? Because I think there's such an interesting time right now ⁓ with this form and this way of which we're now engaging customers with so many different ways. James Warren (06:30) Yeah, you know, there's a group that's out of New York, I think it's called Future of Storytelling, FOST for short. And they do, they've been for a while sort of convening these sort of tech forward, really bleeding edge, immersive storytellers. It's almost like a troop of storytellers are convening of folks across media, tech, brand, ⁓ culture and community, and really exploring all the ways that people are. creating especially immersive experiences around story. And so, you know, I relate what you're asking about, like, where do I see it going? I relate a lot of that to say, the travel experience. I definitely see it happening more and more in retail, but I see travel as a space where it's story rich, it's experience rich, it's already inherently place-based and immersive. And so as travel brands and destinations really ask themselves, how do we not only attract more visitors, more guests, more travelers, how do we create a much deeper, more resonant experience for them that really activates, again, this fundamental human thing. When we experience a great story, whether it's ours or somebody else's, we tend to tell it. And so when a brand or a destination, particularly a travel space, can create that kind of moment, everything from... Steve Usher (07:41) Yeah. James Warren (07:50) almost liken it to like the red carpet treatment. What's happening as I'm walking up to the door? What's happening when I come into the space? What sights and sounds and scents do I experience? Have you thought really deeply about the colors and the patterns? All these things that sort of evoke or trigger or embed in my memory as part of the experience, that's what I'm really holding on to. I recall it 10 years later, people can remember remember really, really powerful things that happened to them with startling detail 20, 30 years later, because it really settled into their brain as a rich experience. I can't remember some of the things that happened to me this morning, but I can remember the amazing experiences I've had in places and spaces. And if I zoom out, whether it was yesterday or 10 years ago or 20 years ago, Steve Usher (08:26) Hmm. Hahaha Yeah. Yeah. James Warren (08:45) Probably one of the defining characteristics of it is it was immersive. Even before they called it that, it was immersive, was multi-sensory, it was invitational, and it was participatory. And I think those are things that really create that opportunity for the consumer or the guest or the resident in the community to just feel it differently. Steve Usher (08:50) Hmm. Yeah, you know, as you're sharing that spark, I'll share this one with you because it really sparked a very recent one, but I know will stay with me as ⁓ I was in London for the London Experience Week and we got to as part of that summit, we got the opportunity to go on an experience safari around London. And so as part of that, we got to immerse ourselves and have kind of also kind of backstage tours of some of the most well-known experiences going on in London right now. And one of those was War of the Worlds, which, you know, from a storytelling one is an absolute classic. We didn't get to see all of it because they didn't want to spoil it. But you know, it was fascinating. The entry moment when we walked in and through this door and entered the world from the ordinary world, there was, we were immediately transported to a Victorian street, which was damp and James Warren (09:38) Wow. Steve Usher (10:04) as we were held in that space and they were discussing this particular space and how the story starts at this point, ⁓ I just was taking a particular notice at the level of detail and even to the moss, like embedded into the cobblestone in the corner and the lantern of the, the, ⁓ this Victorian lantern and even the smell was intentionally embedded, which was one of like, James Warren (10:20) Yeah. Yes. Steve Usher (10:32) not flesh, but it was carnit, like just it was pretty rank. But it was of old Victorian street, which didn't, you know, wasn't particularly clean back then, you know, hygiene wasn't, you know, of the highest order. So they just had it in that immediate moment just captured this like moment of all that Wow, wow, you know, and we haven't even entered into the story at that point. So yeah, just sharing that because it was something which I will share again and again, because it was such a poignant and interesting entry point. James Warren (11:01) You just, I wish my, our CTO Andy was here because he would be really, really excited. When we, when we ask people to share stories with us, we ask them to tell us about their senses and under the sense of smell, we have a few different descriptors that they can choose. And some of them are earthen, woody, rancid. ⁓ Steve Usher (11:21) It was in that realm, for sure. James Warren (11:23) Right, and so, you know, they don't often get selected, but he would be really, really excited to hear somebody be like, I smell the combination of rancid, earthy, and musty. You're like, yes, that's why they're there. So, you know, but you're exactly right. I mean, these moments in our lives, these experiences that, whether they're entertainment-driven or curiosity-driven or sometimes even painful, you traumatic experiences. Steve Usher (11:33) from the Victorian days. James Warren (11:50) We often code them with our senses. We remember what happened and how it made us feel, partly because we're also remembering what we noticed about the moment, because it was so profound. And that is where the recall comes from. And that's what we're really searching for. And some do it well, and some do it kind of at a surface level. But what I love about what you said, even using that example of War of the Worlds, I think just last weekend, sort of during this unplugged weekend I was telling you about before the show, ⁓ Steve Usher (12:02) Yeah. James Warren (12:20) Somehow we wound up with this Smithsonian channel on and they were going through sort of the decades and they settled on a piece around war of the worlds and our younger kids parked up. were like, wait, what, do you mean? was a invasion and I was like, well, well, it wasn't, was a, there was a, there was a radio show. They're like, what? And they got in raptured watching these people sit around radio immersed. in real time at what was happening. ⁓ And Orson Welles was such a masterful storyteller to be able to create back then what was the most immersive experience, captivating an entire nation at the same time huddled around these furniture-sized radios thinking that they were being invaded, but also processing it quite casually, having cigarettes and looking at each other like. What's happening? Are we being invaded or are we not? Like he had suspended disbelief so profoundly. He had created a moment that people can access that even watching that footage decades later, my kids were engrossed. They were like, how did that happen? How did he do that? Could somebody do that today? was like, well, that's a different conversation kids. But the idea that those types of stories really, really live on beyond. Steve Usher (13:14) You. Yes. yeah. James Warren (13:43) the time they were told beyond the medium in which they were conveyed. And to your exact point, they can be brought back to life with new and newer and different ways of getting people a chance to connect. Steve Usher (13:47) Hmm. Absolutely. Well, just look at ABBA with ABBA Voyager experience, you know, brought back completely back to life in the sense of with holograms and stuff, which I haven't been to the show. I've heard it's amazing. So just tell me ⁓ from your perspective in the work that you guys do, and I'm definitely we're to dive definitely more into that because I'm really fascinated how ⁓ yeah, how you're using storytelling for insights. ⁓ But firstly, just for this piece around storytelling for empathy. James Warren (14:01) Yes. Yes. Steve Usher (14:25) and to generate insights and understanding. What's some of the journey that you've been on around that? And yeah, I'm curious also how you've ended up doing that as well. Like how was the, what's the journey into actually recognizing, wait, hang on a minute. We can actually leverage storytelling for this. ⁓ James Warren (14:25) Yes. Yeah, you know, I've been, there's two things I think I've wanted to be most of my life as long as I could remember. One was a writer, specifically, probably storytelling more generally, although I never saw myself as an aspiring, say, filmmaker, but I always saw myself as a writer. And I also saw myself as an entrepreneur, more specifically, a maker or creator, a builder of things. And so, those two things finally came together for me about 11 years ago. And when I started Share More Stories, I was really, really didn't know what I was doing on any level. I was very much like, I know it has to involve stories and I know it has to involve, you know, building something. And my first real interest was even back in 2014, I felt like our social media was broken. And I said, we need a much better way for people to connect and engage. Steve Usher (15:23) Good start. James Warren (15:40) We've all got lots and lots and lots of stories. We should just create a place where people can share stories. And I learned quickly a few things. I learned that A, building platforms like that requires lots of money, lots of expertise. But I also learned that people had, as much as everybody had sort of a story or multiple stories within them at any given time, They also, we've sort of trained ourselves socially and culturally not to tell them as easily as we used to. So like the fear of vulnerability, the fear of judgment, the fear of not being perfect. Because of this broader environment of how content and communication and culture and media are consumed. fewer and fewer people see themselves as the, not even the professional creators, just the expressers, the, you know, expressing themselves has become harder and harder for more people to do. And so that didn't actually turn us away. That made us more curious about, what did we have to do to create a place in space where people could feel more comfortable expressing themselves? And, you know, some of that was reflecting my own need and journey. I was desperate to express myself, desperate to. Steve Usher (16:35) Hmm. Hehehehehe James Warren (16:53) to feel heard and to be seen. And I called myself the frustrated writer for that very reason. But as we started playing around with it and building a site and building tools, we started learning, you know, that what people were really interested in was not how to make this content or create this thing. They were really interested in exploring their own journey through stories. And so that was sort of the first kind of gem or nugget that said, okay, well, let's follow that breadcrumb and see where it takes us. You know, I came out of the marketing and brand strategy world and a lot of folks were like, this would be great for brands. And I was like, absolutely not. This is not for brands. This is for people. And they're like, James, you know better than that. You know, brands are people. And I was like, yeah, but, and it took me a while because I really wanted to make sure we were building it in a uniquely person-centric, human-centric way. That I wasn't building just a brand engagement platform. That I was really building something for people. to be able to express themselves. And so we said, you know, this is about getting the story out of you. And we were inspired deeply by a quote from Dr. Meyer Angelou, which says, there's no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside of you. And so that became kind of the mantra, right? That we walk through life holding lots of stories that we really shouldn't hold in, either because they're difficult and we can kind of get better by letting them go, or because they're amazing. Steve Usher (18:04) Hmm. James Warren (18:17) And life would be so much better if we all shared these amazing moments that we have with each other. And so, you know, back to that group I mentioned, the future of storytelling, I was ⁓ an early in my entrepreneurial journey. So I was hustling. I was trying to get to conferences. was, hey, I can't afford that conference, but I can volunteer. then, hey, if you need to volunteer, are you giving away, you know, tickets and... Hey, it'd be great if I could get a night in that hotel. You know, so was really, really hustling my way into these rooms with tons of, you know, world-class leaders in, like I said, media, brand, et cetera. And so I found myself hosting a workshop, which really meant being like the door host, the greeter. There was a speaker. And in the room was a person at the time who was a director, senior director, VP of consumer insights at large CPG, P &G. And she said something that just stuck me. She said, you know, we're finding that we really need to find a deeper way to understand like what's really happening in people's lives. And a lot of the research tools we have aren't really giving us the whole story. And mean, this was literally one of those magic moments. And I was like, say something James. my inner critic was like, don't say anything. You don't know what you're talking about. You're in way over your head. And I was like, say something. So then I was like, Steve Usher (19:32) No. James Warren (19:43) That's what we're doing at Shareboard Stories. She was like, really? I'd love to talk to you about that. And I was like, me too. And then I was like, what did I just do? So we exchanged cards and we chatted. And I had learned enough to know, don't lead with what we're making. Ask them questions. So I was like, what are you trying to do? And she said, we use this tool, we use that tool. But I just feel like there's something missing. Like we're missing the emotions. We're just not really getting the whole story. Steve Usher (19:59) Hmm. James Warren (20:11) And I said, she said, so what do you guys do? I said, well, we collect personal stories from people about their experiences. And she goes, that's interesting. How would I use that for a research standpoint? So again, my, you know, my inner critic was like, well, the answer to that is we don't know because we haven't built that yet. But my little brave James voice was like, say we're measuring emotion. So I said that I said we're measuring emotion and she's like, my God, I'd love to see more. And I was like, okay, great. Well, you know, let's, ⁓ let's arrange some time where we can give you a demo. And she said, I'd love that. I called up the dev team and I was like, how do we measure the emotion in stories? they were like, don't know. But we found some tools and we made some things that allowed us to do it. And she came to see the platform and she brought all this insight and we built things based around her needs and use case. The most hilarious part about that story is she left the company before we could finalize the work. And so they never became a customer. but she was the best customer that wasn't because she gave me courage. She gave us a clear use case, a clear problem to solve. And really she put us on this path. If I hadn't been in that room and she hadn't asked that question and I hadn't answered it, we probably would have built something very, very different. And so I'm always grateful to this, as I call it, this customer that wasn't because she really, really helped us figure something out in those moments. Steve Usher (21:36) Yeah, that's beautiful. So many lessons for so many people out there. If people are hustling or wherever you are in your journey, just lean in, lean in when the opportunity arises, say yes and then run around like a headless chicken after it's all good. yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lesson in there as well. We're all winging it. Everybody is winging it. Don't ever forget that. Not everyone has all of their stuff sorted out. We're all in the same boat for sure. ⁓ James Warren (21:39) Thank Absolutely. Steve Usher (22:04) Can I just ask as well? I've been involved with some survey work previously and I actually similar to you, I actually did build ⁓ an insights tool specifically at the time ⁓ in the candidate experience insights ⁓ element. And I know how difficult it is and capturing any kind of like customer, employee, whatever fan, James Warren (22:22) Yeah. Steve Usher (22:34) member experience, it's tricky. you know, asking just, you know, typical survey questions, whether it's, you know, quantitative or qualitative, ⁓ it's always challenging, isn't it? Because it's, sometimes they feel like a bit of a bolt on at the end of something, ⁓ or they're not, they're kind of ill conceived and the, or the, you know, the questions just don't feel quite aligned at all and kind of miss the mark. or they're asking questions they want to hear on. And I think that's a really important one is this kind of like, yeah, from our perspective, this is what we want to hear from you, rather than let's give the agency to you to share what your experience was and let's derive insight from that perspective. What's your take on that? And also like from stories, is that different ⁓ for, yeah, just for the audience to understand that. James Warren (23:28) Yes. Well, you hit on a really, really key point here, which is exactly as you say, so much of what takes place in say consumer research today, even employee research is predicated deeply and almost, almost exclusively on what that client, i.e. leader, not just wants to know, but already believes to be true. Steve Usher (23:56) Hmm. James Warren (23:56) There's very little, we say exploratory, but very little is exploratory. Much of it is confirmatory. Like I think this is true. I'd like to validate that. And because people in large organizations that are hierarchically driven have a deep seated motivation to maintain the status quo. Even if they want to grow, growth is incremental in most of these companies because markets are complex, changing consumer behavior is hard, and innovating is really hard. Steve Usher (24:04) Yes. Yes. James Warren (24:26) And so I believe that lots of people in these companies subconsciously sort of suboptimize that to say, well, yes, even their innovation, which feels innovative is really very incremental and that feels like a big risk. So I don't blame people who approach it that way, but we also have to name it as what the situation is because there's plenty of things people want to tell us if we would make space for them to do so. And if we only give them our you know, 50 question survey with a little open ended box at the end. Nevermind how seriously they take that survey. They're probably not feeling like this is my chance to be heard. And even in our focus groups, you know, when we have a preconceived idea of what we want to ask and what we hope people will tell us, you know, you've got five or six or eight people in that group, even with the best moderators, you're really only hearing from any one of them, maybe five to 10 % of the whole time. Steve Usher (25:03) Hmm. James Warren (25:21) And so there's still gaps in what people are expressing to us as insights, as experiences that we can learn from. So, so what we're trying to do, what we are doing with Share More Stories is flipping that script and saying, really, the opportunity is to, to create a place for people to tell us deeply, emotionally, and from their perspective, what's happening, how it makes them feel, and why it's important. And then we have to figure out how to make sense out of that. That puts the onus on the listener. That's true in a one-on-one conversation. If I really want to learn from you, I can't put to you, hey, I'd love to know about your experience, but if you would do it in a way that just answers these five questions, I would really appreciate it. If I did that to you, you'd be like, thanks, but no thanks, James. I'm out. Because who? Steve Usher (26:09) Or the classic is, how likely are you to recommend me to friends or family? Sorry, I'm being critical, but yeah. James Warren (26:12) I you know, if I get another, you know, after an interaction, rate this five point or 10 point scale or like, you know, there's lots to say about those. And I try to tell people different tools have reasons for being in. Most of them can do some good. The problem is when we over rely on them to do things that they're really not designed to do. And when I think about, you know, surveys, most quant and a lot of qual is they do a good job of answering. Steve Usher (26:34) Hmm. James Warren (26:40) who, what, when, and where, and sometimes the how, but they don't really answer the why. And they're not designed to, because the why can't really be boxed in the way we think about it in surveys, and even in a lot of our qualitative. The why has to come from the person you're seeking to engage and to get insight from. So the story is a place where you can invite them to do that, where you could say, tell me a story about a time when and make that story, you the prompt is somewhat reflective of what you want to know. The difference is you're willing to consider and entertain a wide range of experiences to find out what you need to learn about them. And so it really is an engagement driven mindset that says, I want to engage you in order to understand you. And then based on what I understand about you, I can start to better meet your needs and your wants and your preferences. But I think that's the shift that we're talking about. So when you ask people to share a personal story, all those things I talked about that we learned in beginning, the fear of vulnerability, the fear of judgment, the fear of loss of privacy, all those things are very real, and you have to help them navigate that so that they feel comfortable enough to tell you what you really need to know, not just what you want to hear. Steve Usher (27:54) Yeah. How do you, there's two thoughts to build on this is the prompting to coerce the story from that individual and how that's kind of enticed. And then the other element to that then is once you've captured enough stories, how are you then creating the insight from that? And is there a particular like model to that or framework or how does that work? I'm really curious. Cause just that prompt question you had, like tell me a time when it's a super open question ⁓ and really is a very, it's a super inviting one. And we all love to share those stories. So I think it's a great way of capturing insight. just, yeah, just share, share with those two ends. James Warren (28:25) Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a great question. You you've just encapsulated what we call this learning roadmap, right? What is it that we really do hope to learn and what do you really hope to do with what you've learned? And so that learning roadmap is almost a prompting exercise with the brand or the organization or the leader to say, You know, what are you trying to solve for in the business or in the organization? That's question one. Now, what do you think is missing in what you know, actually know to do that? Because we operate with lots of like basic knowledge and then lots of shared knowledge. But if there's a gap, if you're like, hey, I wish we could do this. Okay, well, why aren't you doing it? Well, because we aren't doing this, but let's drill the deal. Why aren't you doing that? Well, because we, so you don't know X that you need to know in order to make that, okay, great. So that's what you need to know. Now, we've done this a lot. So we say, well, what's a way to ask people to tell us about relevant experiences they've had that help you learn what you need to know? And so the way to do that in general, as you point out, is we start with an open, an invitational crafted prompt. Think about a time or tell us about a time when dot dot dot. And that dot dot dot is usually followed by something related to the core of the experience that we're trying to learn more about. So it could either be foundational insights where we're trying to understand how people feel about the brand. Maybe it's a new brand or you're going into a new segment or you're repositioning. So kind of getting a newer foundational understanding of what are people really engaging with in this brand. That's one example. Or it could be more, you know, we're in the middle of executing this strategy, but we're struggling. So let's unpack. this aspect of the product experience or this aspect of how we go to market. And some of that is in identifying, who would you ask to tell those stories? And so that's where just like in research, just like in marketing, we're identifying the who. And when you put those three things together, what we want to learn, who we're asking it from, and a prompt to get them to open up. then that's what happens. And so they will share those stories in surprisingly rich and deep ways. We focus in this research a lot on written storytelling. We're doing audio now, we're adding audio and we'll explore video at some point in the future. But right now we're doing a lot of ⁓ written storytelling because it allows us to explore their experiences without that fear of judgment. So often when they're talking to a camera, they worry about how do I look? you know, even when they're doing audio, how do I sound? But when they're writing, they can naturally clarify, edit, et cetera. And so when they do that, then they write those stories in a platform. Sometimes they're writing hundreds, sometimes even like a thousand words about an experience with the brand or the company or the product. And that gives us a tremendous amount of insight. And so when we have those stories on the backend, we're looking at the stories, we're looking at how we analyze those stories for emotions, we're looking at some very basic questions they answer about who they are or what they do, and all of that together gives us a really, really rich view of that individual, at least in the context of that experience with the company or the brand. And then that's when the analysis starts. Steve Usher (32:14) And you mentioned earlier, from an emotion point of view and even sensory as well, how do you pack in those elements into the analysis? James Warren (32:28) So what we're doing in our platform is we started doing this back in like 2016, initially going way back to that story I told you when that person at P &G said, I'm looking for a solution, we made one. We found some tools that were really, really early in AI and doing much more than just basic sentiment analysis, but we're looking at personality and values and needs. And we started. testing those and playing with those. And then IVM bought those tools and added them to their Watson suite. And we became part of IVM's global entrepreneur program. So we got access to a lot of these tools and we started building with them. And what we learned is we could code for values, needs, core emotions, personality traits and personality facets. And each of those things is being measured against the text of the story or in our case more specifically. We break that text down into smaller and smaller segments so we can get a more accurate view of what exactly are people feeling because we're more than just one moment in an experience. There might be things that are both happy and sad. There might be two different moments that I'm experiencing very differently in the same broad experience. I might say, I hated getting to this hotel. ⁓ I hated the check-in process, but man, I loved my room. ⁓ Steve Usher (33:47) Hmm. James Warren (33:48) And so each of those moments is different and they all relate to that travel experience because what we try to help brands and organizations understand is, you know, the experience that people are having with you is not always only dictated by the things you can control. And so it doesn't mean you can solve for their trip to the hotel, but if you're mindful of that and you're aware of that, you might make that welcome extra special as a sense of. Relief, now you're here, now you're in the place you're supposed to be. Because we now know how much that matters to you. We know there's a part of your experience that you don't love and we can't do anything about it, but we can do a lot about your experience once you get here. And when people have that insight and they have the intention of making a better experience, then that's when good things start to happen. Steve Usher (34:33) Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, that's a good example. mean, what's in your sphere of influence is there, right? So like have that as your focus area. But if you have an understanding of where somebody is coming from, that's a nice, nice example. James Warren (34:47) Yes. Steve Usher (34:49) Can I just ask as well? Cause I think it was something we discussed pre-show, but I'm really curious because this is something that we definitely, we hit on, which was around the CX and EX intersection. So this kind of, know, I don't know, let's hypothesize for a moment. Like AI right now is obviously accelerating. And my view is for brands and organizations, the moments of interaction. James Warren (35:07) Yes. Steve Usher (35:18) like human interaction between employee and customer and customer employee are going to amp up and the need is going to be even greater for as a differentiator. ⁓ I really believe that and that's both in anything from learning and bringing your team together now in some kind of offsite experience to actually in store in a retail context and how we maybe think about the future of retail. What's your view on that? ⁓ And this kind of intersection from storytelling from both sides, the employee's story, what's their story while they're working in an organization or in fact, what's their human story and how is that also impacting and contributing to their experience and what they're then delivering for the customer. And then the customer human experience also coming together. It's quite, you know, when we think of it like that, like two human experiences coming together. James Warren (35:54) Yeah. Yeah. Steve Usher (36:15) How are these stories feeding that insight or opportunities? James Warren (36:20) Well, you know, and I think we're big into AI ourselves because we're using AI to drive the analytics of the platform. And it's been that way for some time. It, because we're doing it with fundamentally a fundamental human truth, a person's story, it gives us maybe the luxury of being able to at least hold for now this human and digital space together. And I think that that is also what has made us more sensitive to how to listen and lean in to what's happening in that human experience on both sides of that brand or organizational relationship inside the organization or in the marketplace. so, you know, the answer to your question, I would say it's partly inherent in your question, right? What is the relationship between the employee and the customer? And the answer is it's profound. And the degree to which you don't think you have those things have a relationship is probably the degree to which both of those experiences are suffering because any place of an organization has to deliver any part of its value through people. And people will assume that means retail, ⁓ hospitality. Well, even if you're tech company, increasingly, the more complicated our products are, the more I find that we are leveraging either human designed agents. ⁓ In some cases, thankfully still humans providing customer support and success, especially in B2B, you're often dealing with humans. ⁓ Even if it's a human at the second line of intervention and support, humans are either delivering or they're building the things that deliver the value to your customer. And if they don't understand their own experiences, if you don't understand them, and if they don't understand the customer experiences, You just have a lot of fragmentation in your value delivery. You might have great leadership. You might have a great employee experience. You might have a good brand and a good customer experience, but they're not connected. You're missing opportunities. And that's assuming you think about those things and you try to make them better. Just the lack of connection can lead to suboptimal results. And so in the most literal sense, what we've seen is Steve Usher (38:36) Huge. James Warren (38:41) For example, in one project we're working on in the health and wellness space, we see that when employees experience and feel a high level of trust in and around their work, it leads to, or at least correlates, I should say, with a high level of trust in the customer experience. And in this case, in health and wellness, that interaction between the human and the customer or the patient or the member is really, really important. But we also see that that high level of trust in both employee and customer also correlates with a higher level of joy and a sense of achievement in the customer. So we're starting to map what people have maybe known intuitively in some ways, like, yeah, happy customers make happy customers, happy employees make happy customers. But sometimes I think people feel that's just like folksy and... and anecdotal and when they have to make hard decisions, they cut resources and programs that maybe make that true. Now we're showing it in data. We're showing in the same organization, looking at employees and customers at the same time and asking them to describe their experiences of feeling connected to or supported by that organization. They're giving us two sides of the trust coin. Steve Usher (39:32) Hmm. James Warren (39:56) And they're also showing us what happens when they don't feel trusted or trusting in the environment. It's the exact same pattern between the employee and the customer, the exact same distribution curve, which was eye-opening. And when you see it that clearly, you know that you are showing people this story is not one-sided. There are two sides to this story. If we want to drive value, it is not skipping the employee and hoping that we have the... Steve Usher (40:01) Mm. James Warren (40:22) the brand and the price and the promotion and the distribution and so on right for the customer. It is through the employee. And it's not just through the employees. We have to tolerate you to deliver value. It is we have to invest in you because A, you're a human and you deserve that kind of experience. But the more we pour into you, the more you're going to pour into the customer. And we see it time and again in our work. Steve Usher (40:42) Yeah. What else do you see in the stories? I'm really curious to hear if you got any kind of anecdotes or not necessarily examples, but maybe some like themes that would, yeah, you could share for the audience around, hey, listen, we listened to a thousand stories and here's some nuances I think you should be aware of. Yeah. James Warren (41:05) You love it. It ⁓ is the best part of my job, Steve. Like, I don't have, know, we're much bigger than we were when we started where we would do these sessions all live in workshop form. They'd all be, you know, 15 to 20 people at a time. And even then I felt like deeply privileged and honored to be able to listen to these stories of people who would like... you know, our process made them feel comfortable. They would open up, they would get curious about themselves and they would share. And there'd be this moment in these workshops where we'd done our whole facilitation and we're like, all right, it's time to write. And I would always feel like a little bit of anxiety, like what if they don't follow this journey? And they'd all just like look around and then put their head down and this quiet would descend in the room. And what I realized then was like, That was another moment, like people were connecting with themselves. It was cathartic, it was therapeutic. And we started also hearing from some of those early customers like, this is great, but I need to talk to more than 20 or 30 people. you build this out? So we started building this platform. And... when we launched the platform, had again, a same like real deep pit in my stomach, like, what if this doesn't work? And what if they don't express themselves the way they do in the rooms? And they almost went deeper because they didn't have to worry about what people around them might be thinking. And they didn't have to worry about like riding on a clock in the workshop. And so they would start, leave, come back. And so then we were like, this is interesting. Like we're actually seeing a different approach to the ask of sharing their story. And they started that the emotions I saw becoming more intensified or clearer to read. And one of the things that really, really jumped out at us was, especially in the employee experiences, there's even at some of the best run companies, ⁓ people are struggling. Even when things are generally good. the, in so much of corporate culture where we're saying things like, want people to be more empowered. We want people to make decisions. We want people to be more accountable. But there's such hierarchical organizations that that shift, that journey is not really underway in most of them. Like I think sometimes those boardrooms and leadership teams think it is, and then you talk to their people and they're like, I'm just doing this. It's like that old, ⁓ There was a Marshawn Lynch NFL moment when he was with the Seattle Seahawks where ⁓ he showed up to a press conference. He's I'm just here so I don't get fined. It's growth time. That's how some employees, even when they're getting like great results, great ratings, they are just showing up. They don't feel deeply connected to the work in some cases the way that I think their leaders think they are. And so. Steve Usher (43:53) Hahaha James Warren (44:12) when we hear these stories of like the conflict between I feel like I can achieve a lot. I also don't feel like I belong here. Like that is like, I want to know that. And if I'm a leader, I should want to know that. And I should want to do something about that because if I'm getting good results with a person who's motivated to achieve but doesn't feel that they belong, what kind of results could we get if they also felt like they belonged? If they felt really seen and heard. Steve Usher (44:26) Yeah. James Warren (44:41) not just for their achievement, but for just their being there. So we have, I would say over the last three years, the tenor of especially employee stories started to shift to something deeper. And we have talked a lot about belonging in the world and we talk about it a lot, especially in this country. But I feel like we were getting an early view into what belonging actually meant for people. And we say it in some of our community, like it's not a program. It really is an emotional state of being. And if you don't know what that emotional map is, it's very hard to deliver that sense of belonging. We can do it one-on-one, but we're doing it one-on-one because we've actually consciously and subconsciously spent time getting to know the person that we want to create that space for. If you're going to do that with a team, you got to get to know the team. If you're going to do that with a company, you got to create a way that you can get to know the company at scale. Steve Usher (45:12) Hmm. Yeah. James Warren (45:34) So that's what I mean when I say this stuff is like empathy at scale. It's creating a way for people to tell you what they really feel about their experiences. And they're trusting that you're gonna do something with it. They're trusting that you're gonna make it better for them because of that. I think that's a huge opportunity for companies everywhere to go much deeper into that employee experience. Steve Usher (45:48) Yeah, it is, it is. And also as well how this is really cool and I tell you this is just some immediate feedback and thought reflection back to you is How many times though, if we have a story to tell or share, we tend to do it, and this is very generic, but just what I'm thinking with this is that we tend to share it in maybe a social context or with a friend or a family or, you know, just, and it tends to be in a certain context and they go, yeah, I had that as well. you, know, da, da, da, da, But how often do we actually sit down and reflect on that story? James Warren (46:36) Yeah. Steve Usher (46:37) And I think intentionally, don't sit down and reflect on the customer experience story or a brand experience, sit down in that context. I think there's something really powerful about that, about, you know, the greatest learning does come from reflection. And so I think it's also really clever way to reinforce the brand for that person to relive and, you know, talk that, talk that story through in a reflective way. James Warren (46:51) Yes. Steve Usher (47:05) with the know that that will bring further value or will hopefully contribute to something ⁓ to make things even better or just better. ⁓ Yeah, there's something cool about that. I like it. James Warren (47:19) It's, it's about voice, you know, and, and, perspective and, and, you know, making space as a, as a brand manager or a product manager or an executive, um, a team leader, whatever role of leadership that person has, there's a responsibility in that leadership. And I think the greatest responsibility is to make, is to, to deliver the results for the business or organization, whether that's for-profit, not-for-profit, whatever that you're there to do. Steve Usher (47:22) Yeah. James Warren (47:48) And to do that by impact, by increasing the impact. You can't increase impact, it's not a mathematical formula, it's a human one. It is a human experience to feel and make impact. Impact means something changed in me. So when that consumer goes from transactionally having a relationship with the brand to that moment where they've fallen in love and they will tell everybody they know about it, that was an impact, that was brand impact. But the same thing happens in the organization, that time when you know, the leadership could have made the easier decision that was less expensive and maybe less risky, but they would have put some of their team in a vulnerable position. And they said, we're not going to do that. That's when those employees were like, now I know you got my back. That's when that trust goes up. And so that's an impact moment. That's not just I did this and they did that. That is something in me changed, even if a little bit. And so I think, you know, when I have a moment, to reflect on that, it can maybe strengthen maybe my conviction or my resolve to deliver that kind of moment more consistently, more intentionally to design for it, to say, hey, I'm glad that happened, but it kind of happened not by accident, but maybe only by intention instead of also by design. And so, and those two things are different in my mind. We can intend lots, but if we don't put effort to design around that intention, Steve Usher (49:09) Yeah. James Warren (49:15) then we are just hoping that what we want comes to be. And I think that in the organization and in the brand, we have to turn that intention into design, and then we have to build it out. And so that's where the real work happens, I think, in the organization and in the brand is to say, we now better know what kind of moments we can have. Let's make more of those moments for the people in our charge because look what happens when they experience those moments. They love working here, they love the brand, and they love interacting together. Some of the employee stories we hear are these delightful experiences of working with customers, unprompted. We're asking them about their employee experience and they're saying, like when I get to do this with this group or with this customer. That blows me away. That tells me that there's more folks out there who if you give them the space and time to really make an impact, more of them than not want to. We've just beaten it out of some of them. Steve Usher (50:15) Absolutely. There's an example in the UK, I'm going back a few years now, so I'm not gonna share exactly, so I might share my age, but it was a mobile phone company. And I think it was like a SIM only type ⁓ product initially. And they, at the time O2 was the biggest, like the best custom experience in the UK at that time. They were like the... the one that everybody was kind of going for because they were delivering extremely good high level quality customer experience. And this company came along and it was tiny. I it was like a SIM business, SIM only business. And they not only caught up with O2, I think they even beat them to this customer experience world if memory serves me right. And I got to meet the customer service director and I asked the question like, how did you do it? And it was ridiculously easy. They just said it was really easy. We just removed the scripts and we removed the average handling time targets and we gave agency to the agents to deliver good customer experience. that was pretty much not that wasn't only it, but it was a big component of, ⁓ know, ZapOS being a great example of that in the US where the agency was like, do what needs to be done to support the customer. James Warren (51:23) Sounds awesome. Yeah. Yes. Steve Usher (51:37) remove those control mechanisms, remove those metrics that are there to spend less time with the customer ⁓ and just let you be human and help other humans. And I think there's something really powerful in that. James Warren (51:51) I love that. And I think, you know, for the leadership team that's struggling to do that, I would ask them in the most literal sense, you know, what are you afraid what happened? Because oftentimes like fear governs so many of our decisions. It's like, what are you, what's, what are you, what are you trying to avoid? What are you trying to mitigate and get them to unpack it? Because then you might get to a place of, well, what they're really saying is they don't trust their team. Okay. Why don't you trust your team? Steve Usher (52:07) Yeah. Hmm. James Warren (52:21) Is it you haven't given yourself enough occasions to observe what they would do? Okay, because you could create those moments and see, you could start this journey. Is it you don't think you've hired the right people to do it? That's hard, but you might have to face that. Or is it that you have the right people and they have the right capability, but you're afraid of losing control because control is a powerful motivator in these hierarchical structured organizations. You know, if I give up control, Steve Usher (52:47) Yeah. James Warren (52:50) What value do I have if I'm not telling people what to do? What is my role? And what we hear sometimes, you know, sometimes people will say, let's, we want to understand what the customer is doing and feeling and experiencing great. Customers basically telling us like, we'd like to have this experience. You're like, well, that's really a staff issue then. Yep. You're right. Let's move upstream. Let's explore what's happening in the organization. That's making it hard for customers to have the moments that they want that you want them to have. well, the organization's talents is really a leadership issue. Yep. You're right. So let's move upstream and now you're at a point where you've come full circle, where the leaders not only got to put themselves in a place of listening, your earlier word, they've got to put themselves in a place of self-reflection. What do I need to do differently if I want to truly have this kind of deeply customer-centric culture, this brand that delivers incredible and amazing experiences and achieve the business outcomes that I want? That's leadership. know, so sometimes we have to help people get there gradually because if we start by saying, you're not going to get any of those outcomes until you change, you know, they're like, I'll look for an easier path. And sometimes when they're, if they're at least willing to listen, then we know there's an opening and that opening is about reflection. Like you said, it's listening, it's engaging, and then it's just gradually bringing them to a point of realization. The customer experience is dependent on the employee experience and the employee experience is dependent on your leadership. So if we want to change the outcome, we've got to start doing some work here. And usually by that point, they're open to that and they're willing, but it's hard. You know, it's hard to get people to that place. There's a difference in the marketplace, right? That's why there's winners and losers because some bet on that strategy and some don't. ⁓ Steve Usher (54:29) It is a systemic. Yeah, always, Yep. And James, there's an area, just a final area I want to explore with you, because it was just part of the research that we've undertaken. But also, I know this is something which is close to your heart and something which I know you really lean into, which is around belonging, inclusion, community. ⁓ How is the work that you've been doing with Share More Stories kind of informed that and support that kind of that these topics for you? James Warren (55:08) increasingly in my personal view of this is to see these things with less distinct boxes and more fuzzy edges. You know, the work I do through Share More Stories with our team, my personal sort of practice of writing and exploring my own life and journey with as much vulnerability and courage as I can muster. I'm doing that not only because it's helpful for me, I think it's helpful for others when they tell me that. And then, you know, the work I do in the community, I see those as very much overlapping spaces. And in the middle of it is my sense of my purpose and my calling. And I didn't realize this until about five years ago. And I was working with a coach and, you know, exploring all of my life experiences, my frustrations, my pain points, my aspirations, and, you know, a lot of storytelling. And as I recalled, the moments that sort of kept stacking together were these moments where I experienced or others experienced profound hope and also where things were being like really revealed, like ⁓ like insight, like ⁓ that's really what's happening. And so it's like that's why I'm here for people to experience hope and revelation. And it sounds very grandiose and I don't mean it that way. I mean it in the most literal sense. That's why I believe I'm here. So in the community, Steve Usher (56:27) So. James Warren (56:32) I'm leveraging some of the same techniques and tools that I've learned or we've honed at Share More Stories. Sometimes we're even leveraging the Seek platform that we've built with communities and organizations because, you know, we're all parts of this community too. And so wherever we can help make an impact, make a positive difference, we want to do that. Because I think, you know, globally, definitely in our countries, and in our cities, I think lots of people are experiencing a connection crisis, a belonging crisis. Beyond the obvious of global conflicts and differences in resources and all the things that have been part of the human experience as long as we've been around, I actually think the dramatic increase in technology over the past, say, 30 years has given people more activities to do. Steve Usher (57:12) Hmm. Goes deeper. Hmm. Hmm. James Warren (57:30) but have left us often feeling less connected. Even when we are doing things digitally in similar spaces, because to your point, we may be shortening that up, it may be a shallower experience, it may not be as rich and as deep as it used to be. And I'm not saying we need to go back to a time where we don't have those tools. saying, I'm not even saying like every tool has got to change its reason for being. I'm saying we as humans can reclaim some of our own experience. we can say, I'm ⁓ meant to be interdependent with other people, neither wholly dependent on them nor independent of anyone. I'm meant to be interdependent. So what does that look like in our team? How can we build that experience? What does it look like in my neighborhood? What does that look like in our community? What does it look like in our country and our world to build real interdependence? I think so much of belonging depends on healthy interdependence where I feel seen, I feel recognized. Steve Usher (57:57) Hmm. James Warren (58:25) and remembered when I literally and physically enter and reenter a space, the act of saying of greeting somebody by name is one of the most powerful indicators of belonging. When you acknowledge people's ⁓ people instantly feel safer. They feel, ⁓ okay, I'm in a place where somebody, anybody knows me. And that reduces the amount of fear and uncertainty as to, is very primal. Like, what might happen to me if nobody knows me? I could get left behind. I could get forgotten. That happens in work. That happens in society. And so when somebody says, I know you, the uncertainty goes from this to this. And then if somebody says, hey, come with me, it goes from this to this. And so for me, like creating those moments and spaces everywhere and anywhere. Steve Usher (58:57) Hmm. James Warren (59:14) inside the organization, in the brand, in the community, in my own life, in my family, in my neighborhood. That's why I'm here. Steve Usher (59:23) Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. Thank you for that. Thanks for sharing that, James. That's really powerful. ⁓ Yeah, I'm just thinking of sharing more stories in the context of community, local community, elderly groups, different, you know, different demographics. mean, just, yeah, imagine. That's really powerful, really powerful. ⁓ James Warren (59:46) Some of the most delightful, melancholy is a good word for this, we've done some work with older populations, with aging populations, around like the caregiving experience. And those stories are, they just, make you feel. Steve Usher (59:57) Hmm. Yeah. James Warren (1:00:05) like what those people are experiencing, they love and what they really are saddened by. And it's not always what's happening in the moment with a caregiver or a caretaker, it's what they've lost. And so if you really, as a micro example, if you're really trying to help an aging adult feel better about the fact that they're aging, it's not just in the functionality of the caregiving experience, it's in... It's in both helping them adjust to an unavoidable loss of maybe freedom or independence. It's also creating new moments where they can have a sense of, here's an interdependent moment where you can be you, where you can show up. They are craving those experiences. We tend to relegate our older folks as well. They're, you know, they're aging. They're not really showing up as themselves anymore. No, they have some of the most fascinating personalities and just want to be engaged. and want to be connected. And when you give them space to do that, the functionality is still there, but the functionality takes a big second backseat to the connection that they're longing for, like all of us. Steve Usher (1:01:15) Yeah, agree. James, ⁓ know, sometimes you have an inkling on podcast, you go, ⁓ this is going to be a good one. It's a nice one. So, know what, thank you for taking us on the story and a journey today. Cause I think we, started with storytelling. We've gone into data, you know, capturing stories a bit more in the business. And then I think, and then we've evolved it way more into the human as we've James Warren (1:01:32) Thank you. Steve Usher (1:01:44) closed off this podcast. So it's been a really nice journey ⁓ to share this with you. So thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, ⁓ a true experienced designer. And yeah, I hope it brings some value to the listeners. And perhaps also if anything, I would wish certainly for this one is to, for people maybe to bring their awareness to stories, their story, others people's stories and what insights. James Warren (1:02:09) Yes. ⁓ Steve Usher (1:02:13) new derive or learnings or reflections. I think that's something that I'm definitely going to take from this conversation. So thank you. James Warren (1:02:19) Thank you so much, Steve. I really appreciate it. Thanks for letting me be part of it with you. Steve Usher (1:02:24) Thank you.