Jessica Weickert - The power of inscapism when crafting experiences

Steve Usher (00:00) Jessica, welcome to the Experience Designers podcast. Jessica Weickert (00:06) Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm a huge fan of yours. So excited. Steve Usher (00:10) Thank you. yeah, no, I'm super excited for today. I know just before we jumped on the show now, we were just sharing our mutual like feel good factor that we think we have a good one, haven't we? That we think we're gonna dive into today. So. Jessica Weickert (00:22) Yes. Yeah, no pressure, no pressure. But yes, I think there's some magic that's brewing here. I'm excited to chat. Steve Usher (00:29) Absolutely. Cool. Well, look, let's dive in. So look, I mean, I know we always talk about like the what and the how, like we're gonna talk definitely around some of the work that you do and some of the perspectives that you have around the experience strategy ⁓ and experiences period, But actually, you know, let's get in like a little bit the who and the why before we dive into that. Jessica Weickert (00:32) Yeah. Yeah. Steve Usher (00:53) in your kind of personal story and reflecting on that on your journey to today? ⁓ are those kind of people or influences that have really kind of you can reflect back on and say, yeah, that was a real ⁓ intrinsic challenge or moment in my life that has really kind of defined me today and really kind of drives what you, some of the work that you do. Jessica Weickert (01:15) I love this question. think it's a really good one. ⁓ So when I was a kid, I think a huge part of my childhood and my upbringing that really shaped me into who I was. I was a kid who struggled with ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorders. ⁓ And the more I started to learn about it and learn about myself and sort of just a lot of scientists who really studied this condition, ⁓ what's really interesting is that they say it actually is something that's mislabeled. It was labeled in the 1920s. you know, about little boys who couldn't sit still, who were super disorganized. But as it's been studied for decades now, ⁓ almost centuries, is that, ⁓ you know, it's actually an emotional regulation disorder. And so the more I started to learn about that, the more I actually started to uncover like, wow, it's not just actually people who have ADHD, the average person actually to begin with cannot manage their emotions. We have trouble as human beings managing our nervous systems. It's why we sometimes make super bad decisions or when you're a teenager, you're listening to like punk metal rock, right? Trying to manage all of the pressures of being a teenager and growing up because our emotions simply get in the way and really turn us into those irrational human beings. And so, Steve Usher (02:32) Hmm. Jessica Weickert (02:45) Throughout my life, I just became super fascinated with modern neuroscience and really just trying to understand how human beings at their core manage their feelings, manage their emotions, how that impacts their behavior and ultimately determines their decision-making. Fast forward to what I'm doing at XDA and a huge part of our creative strategy team. Steve Usher (03:05) Hmm. Jessica Weickert (03:14) You know, we've identified a very unique opportunity in experience design. Again, knowing that us as human beings, we have such a hard time managing our emotions, right? Is designing experiences in a way that help people regulate their nervous systems, help them, you know, ⁓ really alter their emotions in a way that help them make better decisions that lead to better worlds for themselves. That's really the foundation of what our brand platform and XTA is all about, which is known as Create Better. It's about creating better experiences that lead to better worlds for the lives of the people that we're designing for, which is a huge reason why we leverage neuroesthetics as part of our creative strategy team. Steve Usher (03:59) Yeah. So tell me, how does that, just in terms of some of those, I guess, challenges from ADHD, like particularly during those like formative years, ⁓ can you share a little bit more on that in terms of how it impacted you and some of the kind of resilience that develops as part of that, or even how you cope and use it as well in a way, in a way from a creative perspective? Jessica Weickert (04:07) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that question as well. ⁓ you know, I would say, you know, being a kid with ADHD, you you have to work 10 times harder as everybody else. ⁓ You know, I was really fortunate to be in a school where they actually were very inclusive of children with ADHD and learning disabilities and learning differences. And what's really interesting, which I look back and laugh on again when we're talking about neuroesthetics is I actually took my tests in a different room and the room was intentionally designed in a way to help children with ADHD. You know, it was painted with spa colors. They would play classical music, right? The colored paper that I would take tests on were a different color. Steve Usher (05:10) Hmm Jessica Weickert (05:16) Right? They were, you know, ⁓ a neon green because neon green is known to really boost focus, right? And sharpen cognitive function. Right? So we're already seeing like some neuroesthetics happening when I was like, when I was a kid, right? With learning. ⁓ I would also say, you know, ADHD is, a superpower, you know, being a part of a creative agency, having ADHD, you know, you can multitask really, really well. ⁓ you know, you're super, super empathetic going back to that emotional piece. You can connect with people on a D on a different level, especially, you know, around again, the empathy piece of, know, if somebody is being, you know, super sensitive around something, you kind of have a deeper level of understanding as to where they're coming from, right. ⁓ because of ADHD. So I always say that ADHD is an a disability, it's an ability, right? It's the superpower that allows you to be more creative, more empathetic, and yeah, it allows you to multitask better. Steve Usher (06:18) Definitely. think it's, I think I definitely relate on the empathy side. ⁓ Yeah, both both my children have got dyslexia and I think one of my children you can see from an empathic point of view is just like, I mean, just on another level. Yeah. So like go forth and use right use this use the whether it's a skill based or whether it's from a neuro perspective. Yeah, use use your strengths. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (06:33) Totally. Yeah. 100%. And when we're also thinking about what's interesting now is, you know, I would say an experience design inclusion is so important when we're thinking about neurodivergent audiences, right? And there's like neurodivergent audiences. And then there are people who might not be neurodivergent, but we're coming out of, you know, five years from the pandemic where people are having trouble regulating their nervous systems, like, because we were literally trapped in our houses for so long, right? Where we need, like you're seeing all these music festivals and concerts have these decompressed lounges and mind and body resets before they go back and go listen to their favorite band, right? Because people need that reset now. So there's a lot that we can learn from the neurodivergent community, right? When it comes to experience design as well. Steve Usher (07:18) Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I was going to ask you that question actually. So well said. ⁓ So can I ask, let's dive into the field in which you are serving and engaging with in this passion, definite passion that you have for. But let's start at the top really on a more like holistic level for those that perhaps don't work in the more kind of experiential marketing industry. ⁓ I mean, from Jessica Weickert (07:45) that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve Usher (08:07) My perspective, what I see, I mean, you just have to look at like Cannes Lion Festival, right? To see where, where kind of brand activation is right now and where some of those kind of immersive experiential focuses. ⁓ and obviously you're looking at high, high value brands, Louis Vuitton, et cetera, doing some incredible stuff. ⁓ what, what are you, where, where are we right now? I'd love to get your light view from your perspective on where this kind of market is today and where some of those key pillars have been evolving. say post-COVID ⁓ as part of that journey. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (08:42) Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think it's important to talk about what experiential marketing was sort of traditionally seen as even prior to the pandemic and then looking at experiential marketing now post pandemic, like you mentioned, know, experiential marketing when I first started was kind of like, hey, we have this business problem. Let's use our experience almost like a call to action, a tool to solve said business problem. It was more around, hey, this is something that people attend, not necessarily something that lives on beyond that moment in time, right? And then the pandemic happened, everything Steve Usher (08:55) Love that. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (09:20) happened overnight, right? We were all there. And now coming out of the pandemic, and there's an amazing study that was done by Wonderman Thompson a couple of years ago, where they said that 77 % of people are now, it's like a reawakening, right? They want their senses to be awakened. They want to feel more alive and they expect brands to help them feel those intense emotions. And so now we're seeing this profound shift in experiential marketing where it's no longer just about the business problem. It's about the human problem behind the business problem. And a lot of people miss that part. It needs to be about how can we design for feeling and emotion and solving that problem using the human problem as a way into almost like a gateway. Steve Usher (10:15) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (10:16) And so experiences are no longer really a call to action, right? They're really a call to feeling, right? And you and I have talked about this before, you know, ⁓ I also feel like experiences in the past, you everybody, when we're talking about immersion, right? It's like, we're trying to get them to escape to this other world. And again, it's no longer really even about escapism anymore. It's really about that in scape is giving people. that introspection, that moment to reflect, that moment to, again, feel something, to feel more alive because people more than ever need that right now. I would say when we're looking at where things are shifting, even looking into the future, I think luxury is a really interesting sector to look at when it comes to experiential marketing. ⁓ I saw this somewhere. I saw it written somewhere and I can't remember who said it. ⁓ But somebody said luxury is now presence. The new luxury is all about intentionality. It's not about what you consume anymore. It's how it makes you feel and who you do it with. healing is almost like the new status symbol. And so we're seeing more curated experiences that feel sacred, that feel rare, that feel so hard to replicate. But it's especially the ones where Steve Usher (11:29) Mmm. Jessica Weickert (11:41) shared rituals are really at the helm that are intentionally amplifying well-being. So we're seeing like remedy place pop up, other ship. We're seeing that Ami Ali Resort in Utah. I think I saw you post about that as well. Those are great examples of this huge shift in even like hospitality, right? Where these luxurious experiences that people ⁓ are seeking out. Steve Usher (11:54) Yeah, yeah Jessica Weickert (12:06) are intentionally being designed to, again, to help people heal, to help people feel something, ⁓ to really amplify wellbeing. So I feel like that's a really, that's gonna be, we're gonna see that more and more with the Louis Vuittons, with, you know, all of these luxury brands where, again, healing is almost becoming this new status symbol. Steve Usher (12:26) Yeah, that's amazing. I think just to play that back a little bit. So what I'm hearing there is like we're moving from this kind of traditional awareness, like building awareness around your brand to actually much more intentionality to make it more, not just memorable, but meaningful using kind of Matt Durdens kind of model. But then that meaningfulness requires reflection and going inward. ⁓ How are brands or how are organizations thinking about this in the sense of Jessica Weickert (12:35) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve Usher (12:56) creating this and I wouldn't even say personalization, this individualization, because that requires you to kind of reach inside of almost everybody if you can. mean, part of designing experiences is you kind of create and then you step out and you can't necessarily control the experience, what the experience people are having. So how are organizations thinking about that when they're creating some kind of experiential approach and then... Jessica Weickert (13:16) Mm-hmm. Steve Usher (13:24) trying to also make sure that they've got that balance of individualism and inviting the customer or the fan or whoever into that space to make that level of connection. a reflection I just had. Jessica Weickert (13:35) Yeah. Yeah, no, that's interesting. It's a really interesting question. ⁓ You know, I can tell you what we're doing at XDA just to sort of, just to sort of, ⁓ no, and I, no, I love it. ⁓ You know, Steve Usher (13:42) Cool, do it. Yeah, do it. That's why I'm asking. Jessica Weickert (13:49) I mentioned this at the top of this is a huge part of what we do at XDA is we look at everything through a neuroesthetics lens. So we're always looking at the impact of aesthetic experiences on our brains and bodies, largely by examining people's nervous system. So we're looking at how can we bring in light? How can we bring in sound frequencies? How can we bring in nature and even scent to really Steve Usher (13:58) Hmm. Jessica Weickert (14:16) alter the way that people as individuals, but also the collective, are having an experience and really designing for specific feelings and emotions to drive specific behaviors. ⁓ And, you know, I think that's a really interesting way, again, of saying, you know, when a client comes to us and says, you know, we want to make people feel optimistic, right? It's looking at how can how can we create this optimistic collective experience, right? Maybe we use, know, purple is actually a color that is supposed to inspire optimism, but maybe we also use an 852 Hertz frequency that not only gets everybody on the same wavelength, right, as a collective, but individually, you know, replaces negative thoughts with positive ones and really sparks that optimism, because we know that about. ⁓ a certain sound frequency. And that individual is having that individualized curated experience for themselves, where even though everybody might be on the same wavelength, they're able to have their own individual experience, right? So, we always are looking at how can we pair science and design together to ultimately shape people's individual experiences for the greater collective, right? ⁓ Steve Usher (15:42) I have a question. have a question. ⁓ I have a question. So what's the line between authenticity and manipulation and being authentic about what we're creating as well here? Just a thought I had. just thought I'd throw that one in. ⁓ Jessica Weickert (15:42) Go ahead, sorry. Yeah, I can tell. I'm like, something's brewing here. Oof. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good one. You know, I think it's positive manipulation, if that makes sense. Like manipulation sounds like a sounds like a bad term. I think it's like, it can be good, right? And it goes back to, you know, what I was saying earlier is like, you know, at end of the day, and James Wallman loves to say this part of the WXO is like, at the end of the day, we just want to create better experiences that create better worlds. So if Steve Usher (16:12) Mm-hmm. No, it could be good. Jessica Weickert (16:38) if we're using our as experienced designers, if we're wielding our power responsibly, right? And designing these experiences that unite people together, that make them connect over their differences, that help them have these positive experiences that amplify their wellbeing, right? Going back to the neuroesthetics, if I can help somebody like increase their oxytocin, reduce their stress and help amplify their wellbeing, well damn, like that's pretty powerful, right? And you know, going back to how I grew up, know, and I, Maeder, our head of creative, I always used to tell her this was, I had this aha moment a couple years ago where, you know, growing up, my sister, I have two older sisters. My oldest sister, she's an environmental lawyer trying to save the world. I have another sister who is an OB-GYN who literally brings babies into the world. And I always used to joke like, I just do experiences. And then COVID happened and, you as a strategist, you're always having a pulse on everything. I joined XDA. We've been really driving home this neuroesthetics approach. And I realized like, holy shit, like we actually are, like we have the ability to save people's lives, especially when we're thinking about the loneliness epidemic. I mean, that is, Steve Usher (18:02) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (18:04) That is super wild knowing that the collective experience, know, Emil Durkheim in, I think it was 1920, like over a hundred years ago, he coined the term collective effervescence around saying, hey, when people come together, something really euphoric happens, right? Our immune system increases, our kindness and empathy goes up, and oxytocin floods our systems. And those bonding moments lead to greater personal development, decreased levels of anxiety. there's an arrow or the decreased depression, but most importantly gives us the resilience to combat loneliness. And when you hear that, you're like, holy shit, as an experienced designer, I actually am contributing to the greater good. actually am helping people not feel so lonely in the world. And Steve Usher (18:41) Hey! ⁓ Jessica Weickert (19:03) I don't know if you saw this, the World Health Organization just a few weeks ago just declared social health as a global health priority. They said it is as equally important as ⁓ mental and physical health. So it's now becoming a third pillar in our health system. so again, and we talk about this in the WXO, experiences are medicinal. It's why doctors are prescribing museum visits, right? Steve Usher (19:28) Hmm. Mm. Jessica Weickert (19:33) It's why we're Steve Usher (19:33) Mm. Jessica Weickert (19:33) seeing, again, going back to the luxurious ⁓ trends that we're seeing, the luxury hospitality sector. It's why all of these experiences are like, ⁓ shit, we need to be helping people amplify their well-being, especially in the world that we're living in. So it's positive manipulation, right? Going back to your question. Steve Usher (19:55) Yeah, yeah, I think there always will be some brands that perhaps are less honest about it personally, but you know, there always will be, it'll be all about bottom line, yeah. Jessica Weickert (20:06) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. There's always gonna be, yeah, there's greenwashing, there's tokenism, there's a lot, there are brands that are doing that. But I think that also goes back to another huge trend that we're seeing is this idea that brands are really becoming the new gods. And that's a very provocative statement. So going back to authenticity, yeah, yeah, yeah. Steve Usher (20:30) Noooo Jessica Weickert (20:35) I that's a big, well, I think what's interesting if you look at human beings for centuries, Worship has been core to who we are, right? It's why religion has been a cornerstone to who we are, right? It's shaped our identities. It's given us the moral guidance. It's created social cohesion and community, right? And so for centuries, that has been our innate human desire. has been that worship. Now, fast forward to today, right? We're seeing that desire has never truly gone away. think going back to that Wonderman Thompson study I talked about, like people wanna feel something, people wanna feel alive, and they expect brands to help them feel those intense emotions. And so we're seeing that the gods that we're worshiping are actually shifting towards brands, right? And there's, you we're seeing Brandoms and fandoms and cult-like followings really like pop up everywhere, right? One of my other favorite statistics is that 85 % of people between the ages of 14 to 44 say they identify as a fan of something and over 50 % of people consider fandoms a crucial part of their personal identity. So when you hear that, you're like, whoa, like something really interesting is happening. But I think my favorite, favorite ⁓ study is the study that was done by Dr. Michael Platt. He's a neuroscientist at Wharton. He did this experiment with Apple and Samsung users. And what he found was Apple customers brains lit up showing empathy for the brand when exposed to something negative about it, while Samsung customers did not react in the same way. And so, Steve Usher (22:27) Mmm. Jessica Weickert (22:28) Basically, the takeaway there is that our brains have evolved to have empathy and loyalty for things beyond human beings. And successful brands like Apple have been able to create that social emotional connection, right? And so again, when you hear something like that as well, you're like, okay, the bar has been raised here. Brands are playing this large role in really fostering Steve Usher (22:42) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (22:55) our identity and our purpose. But then it goes back to what you said around manipulation and authenticity. I think we as experienced designers and creators, when we're partnering with these brands, right? You know, we need to help wield that power as a force for good, right? Steve Usher (23:12) Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think this isn't come from a place of specific knowledge. This is just an observation. It's, when we have a growth in anything in industry, you know, it can be eroded, essence of it. And so with like experiential marketing, which is like booming right now, there's always a risk in that if everything's experiential, then nothing is. Jessica Weickert (23:38) Yeah. Steve Usher (23:41) And so I think there's also this balance in this as well. mean, you can't predict it or control it, but I think it's also ⁓ to be mindful of that as well, be choosy about what you do and don't do as well, more importantly. Yeah. So tell me about something that you've shared as well, I think publicly it was around the model of the think, feel, do ⁓ being dead. ⁓ Jessica Weickert (23:56) Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Steve Usher (24:11) we've got God, yeah exactly dead it's done Jessica Weickert (24:11) Another provocative statement. Steve Usher (24:14) so tell us a little bit more about that tell us a bit more Jessica Weickert (24:20) Yeah, no. So I think what's important to note around, again, we talked about traditional experiential marketing versus where experiential marketing is headed. I think it's the same thing when we're thinking about old creative strategy and new creative strategy. When I first started in strategy, it's the age old framework that everybody talks about, which is What do we want them to think? What do we want them to feel? What do we want them to know? There's think, feel, know, do. There's think, feel, see, do. There's all these different frameworks, right? I can't tell you how many times I've used that framework in my career, but I think what's really interesting about that is that basically what it's saying is like, we need to be giving equal weight to what they think, what they know, what they feel, and what they do. But when you look at, you when we're looking at today's world that's transitioning from a society plagued by loneliness to one that's prioritizing those meaningful connections and emotional experiences, you know, that model is not just dead. Neuroscience proves that it's just wrong, right? We should be focusing on when somebody feels something, right? That's when we think and that's when we do. It's not... There's no equal way. It should all be about how do we want them to feel because when we feel something, we influence a peer, right? Which makes somebody, you know, ultimately drive that behavior and drive that action, which again is why our creative strategy team is so focused on the neuroesthetics lens, right? Steve Usher (25:59) And that also connects back to what you're saying from a brand point of view, that the actual meaning of the brand, what they stand for, what they relate to, not just as a business, but to the local community, to the world, to whatever level they want to go to, what they stand for. That has to be so clear and very, very authentic in who they are and how they act. ⁓ Yeah. Jessica Weickert (26:06) Yes. Exactly, totally. mean, we as as you know, brand experience creators, brands all over the world, you know, I think what's important is that, you know, brands are shaping those self beliefs, they are sparking that confidence, they are building a perspective that that people want and people are seeking out that people want to believe in the best versions of themselves. I think, you know, we do a ton of work with Lego. ⁓ Lego is one of our our ⁓ greatest clients, they're incredible. ⁓ You know, their belief around the power of play, right? And, you know, reducing stress and increasing that emotional stability for children, right? Think about children right now. They're this generation that's having to deal with more stress than any other generation before them, right? But what they're doing is they're encouraging imaginative play. They're allowing children to build anything they can envision. Steve Usher (27:00) Hmm. ⁓ Jessica Weickert (27:22) fostering creativity and self-expression. And they're also creating that shared ritual between a parent and a child as well. And so they're creating that self-confidence. They're creating that belief system that we were talking about earlier that's so powerful. We also just ⁓ did some really great work with Pooch. And if you're not familiar with Pooch, it's a lifestyle wellness brand founded by Courtney Kardashian. Steve Usher (27:38) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (27:50) It's a really interesting brand because they actually promote the duality of living a clean and balanced life. ⁓ So, you know, it's the idea of like, hey, you can stay up all late partying with your best friends till 3 a.m. But you can still make the Pilates class the next morning or you can still have, you know, a veggie burger with the gluten free, you know, bun and all. Right. It's you know, know, it's it's you can have both. It's it's fine. ⁓ Steve Usher (28:07) Hmm. Jessica Weickert (28:20) And what I love about Poosh is that, again, it's not just selling products, it's selling an identity that is all about having your cake and eating it too, right? ⁓ And this year at Coachella, we actually partnered with their team to create and bring to life that belief system through an experience that's called Camp Poosh. So basically it's a house and haven for all things wellness. So everything from, again, you can take shots and you know have party with your best friends all week and long right. But then we you know we have you know cryotherapy and you know some really great wellness type experiences. But again I think that's an important lesson. ⁓ You know we're giving people something to believe in and being able to allow them to see the best version of themselves and that's really really powerful. Steve Usher (29:16) Yeah, I thought you were going to say you built a big cake so that everybody could eat it literally. Jessica Weickert (29:20) You know? ⁓ Steve Usher (29:23) There's also something you mentioned as well, like creative strategy, because this is your bag. This is something that you do, clearly. How has... ⁓ Jessica Weickert (29:33) you Steve Usher (29:34) How is creative strategy, and I know perhaps maybe we can lean a little bit into the neuroscience here, but how is creative strategy as a discipline, as a function, ⁓ as a way of working, evolving with the evolution of experiential marketing? Jessica Weickert (29:55) Yeah, no, that's a great question. think what's ⁓ really important to note about that evolution is, again, knowing that the bar has been raised not just with brands, but also within experiences, you have to have a story within an experience, right? It's no longer, again, just like, we're showing up and, again, attend the event, right? Like people want to be immersed in the brand's world, right? And so I think with creative strategy, yes, it's the neuroesthetics and the neuroscience and all the things that we've talked about, but it's also ensuring that that experience has a story, right? Because our brains are wired for storytelling and people want to be immersed in the brand's world. We talk a lot about story living, right? Steve Usher (30:25) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (30:46) you know, making sure that, you know, audiences feel like they are the main protagonist in, you know, feeling like they are a part of the story, but also driving the narrative and dictating those outcomes, right? And so that's a huge part of creative strategy is, you know, we're not just the emotion years, we're also the storytellers and the story livers and making sure that, you know, that story is being pulled through from the start of the experience to the end of the experience. Steve Usher (31:15) Yeah, that's awesome. I think there's correct me if I'm wrong, because there's a lovely example coming up right now with Netflix house, it? Where they're moving. I mean, I love this because it's such a great example. think a lot of people who aren't necessarily in this field can relate to is, know, for those that watch Netflix or, pretty religious from a Netflix perspective and watch all of the box sets or any of their favorite shows, I love this kind of Jessica Weickert (31:24) Yeah! Steve Usher (31:43) this duality now of moving from like just a, you know, literally a two dimensional show that you watch on a TV to now actually be able to go and immerse yourself into your favorite show and participate. I think it's just super clever business personally. Yeah. What else are you seeing in that as well? Like that evolution? Cause I love the storytelling to still a story doing and living that transition to that. What else do you see in that area? How'd you see that evolving? Jessica Weickert (31:59) ⁓ for sure for sure yeah no Yeah, I think it goes back to again, like, it's not just telling the story and immersing it. It's people want to choose, like, how they are the character and how they are manipulating the narrative. It's like taking it that far, right? Like, so it is putting someone in squid games or putting them, you know, inside their favorite TV show, but then not only making them feel like they're on set, but then making them feel like, ⁓ I can change the plot here. I can create a plot. twist, right? And making them feel like they are an actual character. So it's taking it a step further, right? Seeing that a lot, right? I think Squid Games is actually one of the best examples of that. You're seeing that pop up in New York City. You could actually go in and become one of the players. You label yourself a certain number. You actually can determine like all of the different plot lines. It's a really, really fascinating. I know I would love to do that. Steve Usher (33:13) Oh God. I heard Pac-Man is meant to be amazing. I think Pac-Man in the UK right now I've heard is a good fun as well. Yeah. Minecraft as well. That was apparently really good. I haven't been to that one just yet. I know we've referenced neuroscience a bit. I know this is an area that you're really, you're super fascinated in and obviously leverage. Tell me kind of what's happening in neuroscience right now. Where are some of the really interesting right on the edge of experiential where it's, yeah, where it's Jessica Weickert (33:19) to do that. Yeah. Steve Usher (33:43) Yeah, fun opportunities. Jessica Weickert (33:45) Yeah, totally. You know, I would say again, like, I keep I keep talking about neuroesthetics because I think in the United States, a lot of people aren't talking about it. It's talked about so much in Europe, you know, London, I would say is like a huge hub for neuroesthetics. My favorite authors, ⁓ Susan Maximin and Ivy Ross, they wrote Your Brain on Art. I don't know if you've read this book. It's so good. But they, you know, they're two neuroscientists. They actually put neuroesthetics on the map in the United States. They wrote that book. It's become so popular. So again, we're seeing this everywhere with people now just intentionally saying, ooh, okay, like, Steve Usher (34:11) I haven't yet. I haven't. I've definitely heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (34:33) You know, of course, when we hear, ⁓ openness and curvature, okay, the brain instinctively prefers curved forms. When you hear that, you're like, no, duh. But it's actually thinking about how can I intentionally, again, design that knowing that it creates safety, it creates calm, and it creates approachability. So we're seeing that again, pop up more and more, you know, throughout experiential. Steve Usher (35:01) Yeah, I've got some pods coming up on particularly on soundscapes at the moment. ⁓ There's some awesome stuff happening in that. I'm really excited for that field particularly. Yeah, just yeah, I won't spoil it, but there's some good some coming up. ⁓ So that's really good. Yeah. ⁓ Jessica Weickert (35:07) Yeah Totally, yeah, what the guys are doing at White Mirror to L Acoustics, there's a lot of really interesting ⁓ sound design that is happening in the world right now that it's worth paying attention to. ⁓ My favorite experience by White Mirror was the Lupana experience. I don't know if you saw that they replicated a beautiful Lupana tree. ⁓ Steve Usher (35:33) Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (35:47) and actually like immerse people under it. And they brought in, you know, a beautiful soundscape, but then, you know, they changed the temperature in the room and, you know, and really created this like incredible environment, again, using neuroesthetics and bringing in that neuroscience, but especially using that sound, ⁓ you know, to really create that environment for people. Steve Usher (36:11) I can confirm nor deny that white mirror may have been on the podcast and it's coming out soon. So I'll share that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So watch out for that one, everybody. So look, we, can we just, I'd love to just also, cause I mean, you're so immersed in this world. Let's talk some brands and I don't necessarily mean like from an XDA. Let's just like make it relatable for people as well. Like, Jessica Weickert (36:18) ⁓ my gosh, I cannot wait. Tom is so incredible, so is Remy. They're amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Steve Usher (36:41) What are some of your kind of favorite brands that are doing interesting things right now? ⁓ And what kind of industries do you see probably kind of popping up more and having opportunities to leverage what's happening in this world right now? Jessica Weickert (36:59) think the most interesting world to look at right now is actually fashion, what they're doing. So obviously we've seen fashion evolve. You know, there's been some really interesting, like unique mashups between fashion brands and you know, but I think my favorite example of a fashion brand completely flipping an experience on its head was the Christian Louis Vuitton fashion show last year in Paris. I don't know if you saw that. They instead of saying, Hey, we're going to Steve Usher (37:02) Hmm. Yeah? I didn't. Jessica Weickert (37:28) do a runway, you know, and have all of our models come out in our new Christian Louboutins, they actually created almost like a Broadway musical and recorded it and made it this unbelievable experience. No, it's like, talk about story living. It is basically this like 10 story house and they put all of these models wearing the Christian Louboutins. All of a sudden you hear fire. Steve Usher (37:37) you Jessica Weickert (37:56) ⁓ siren go off and all of these dancers start diving into a pool and doing these like synchronized swimming with with their Christian Louis Vuitton's and then this fireman comes sliding down and then all of sudden somebody's singing. I mean it is unbelievable but I feel like fashion in particular is a really interesting sector to look at in terms of not just the different mashups right the brand mashups. but like how they're bringing in experiential now and rethinking everything, right? And rethinking even their fashion shows. I saw that I think in fashion, 61 % of fashion brands are, into 2026, are looking at increasing their experiential marketing budgets just because of how everybody is raising the bar. So I would say fashion is one of the most interesting sectors to look at right now. Steve Usher (38:46) Yep. How interesting. I don't know why this came to mind. And maybe I was talking to a friend about this recently. I used to go to Ibiza in the nineties and there was a night on the Monday called Manumission, which is in one of the world's biggest clubs, which is still there today, the club itself, but Manumission stopped a long time ago. And the stuff that they staged even back then, I mean, it just reminded me now, I Jessica Weickert (39:02) I mean... Hmm. Steve Usher (39:21) you know, taking a normal nightclub, but then staging it into this theatrical, crazy hedonistic night, ⁓ you know, called the Good Shipman, mission. they had, I still remember some of the things that trapeze artists and all sorts of things happening. And it's so like that I'm sharing it because I'm sharing a memory with you that's been ingrained inside of me out with the, memory and the emotion. And I love that kind of Louis Vuitton example you shared of like moving like Jessica Weickert (39:29) Totally. Steve Usher (39:50) challenging themselves to move outside of a typical kind of fashion show, which has probably been the same for decades. I mean, some form of walk that they have to walk out. And not only that, recording that kind of form compared to what you described, that's two different, very different types of content that you're capturing in real time as well to repurpose and to leverage post-show as well. ⁓ Super clever. Jessica Weickert (39:59) Totally. Very clever. Yeah, I think, you know, what it reminds me of, and at XDA we call it unexpected energies and unexpected places, right? It's like, you're like, I would never in a million years think to see a fashion show become, again, like an actual Broadway musical, right? Like that's wild to think about. I would say the other thing that we're seeing, going back to when you said the club culture example, Steve Usher (40:36) Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (40:46) You know, we're also seeing a lot of retail spaces like the Nikes of the world on, ⁓ you know, they're actually, you know, doing these private, you know, sneaker try ons, but they're actually bringing in like actual DJs. So it's like really interesting seeing, you know, club culture not being confined to a like dark, sweaty basement, right? They're spilling into, you know, high-end retail spaces and just like, you know, again, an un- Steve Usher (41:08) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (41:15) unexpected energy. We're also seeing in coffee shops, right? You know, people are partying like it's 1999, right? At bakeries and coffee shops, right? Like you walk in and you're like, I wasn't expecting to see Tiësto here or Kygo, right? Like these, these big DJs are, and it's only 1pm, right? And this isn't happening in Las Vegas, right? It's happening in New York. It's happening in Portland, Oregon. It's happening, you know, Steve Usher (41:31) Hahaha. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (41:45) all over the place. So I think that's a really interesting trend that we're seeing as well. Steve Usher (41:50) What's happening with coffee shops? Because all of a sudden, we're also seeing brands create their own coffee shops as well. Some of them are gorgeous. mean, just design-wise, they're so, so inviting. That's another cross-pollination as well that seems to be fashionable at the moment. Jessica Weickert (42:02) Yeah, I think what's interesting about coffee shops is that, you know, it truly is a third place. It's that place that you can go and, you know, connect with somebody, going back to the in scape-ism, maybe it's a place for you to reflect. You know, I certainly love to go to coffee shops and write poetry and things like that, but I think it truly is. It's a third place. It's a place for you to go and meet... Steve Usher (42:10) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (42:29) connect with somebody, maybe connect with a stranger. And now I think coffee brands or other brands who are taking over coffee shops, right, are realizing like, this is a third place. People do want to connect with other people and what better place, right? We're also seeing like yoga pop up at coffee shops, right? So again, it's becoming that third place for social interaction for sure. Steve Usher (42:54) Question. Do you think experiential marketing would be where it is today if COVID didn't happen? because sometimes events happen in the world that send certain things off in different directions and some boded well less so. ⁓ Because I think there's this interesting, I don't know, I think that the purpose element, mean, the things we've just shared today, very brand led, ⁓ some of the examples we shared. Jessica Weickert (43:15) Hmm. Great question. Steve Usher (43:33) ⁓ yeah. And how, mean, I love that, you know, yes, it's, it's created a, ⁓ a loneliness epidemic, ⁓ for sure. And I think there's a huge issue, ⁓ particularly in young men right now, there's some big, big, big challenges, ⁓ to overcome. ⁓ so I'm just wondering like how, experiential can conserve some of those as well? Like where's that, where's the opportunity in those to really bring people together? Jessica Weickert (43:49) Yeah. Steve Usher (44:01) in a much more meaningful way and add value. Jessica Weickert (44:03) Yeah, to answer your sort of earlier comment around, you think the pandemic, I actually think this would have, I still think experiential would have continued to boom because of how we're just all phone addicts. Yes, the pandemic did, no, seriously. Yes, the pandemic, yeah, no, but like, ⁓ we seriously are. ⁓ But, you know, again, like, yes, the pandemic made us even more of, Steve Usher (44:08) Yeah. No, no, I'm laughing. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (44:33) of phonetics, but you know, the way that phones are designed now, it's giving us those dopamine boosts constantly, right, which is contributing. I still think there would be a loneliness epidemic, whether there was a pandemic or not. so, right. And like, you know, James, I think he talked about this at WXO Summit. think I think he had quoted a study that was from, I think, like 10 years ago. Steve Usher (44:40) Yes. Hmm. Jessica Weickert (45:01) right, saying like one out of 10 people look at their phones while they have sex, right? So James, so James, James, you're listening, I love that quote. But now actually, if you look at the study, I think it's like one out of five. So again, people like people are still doing that, right? But it's like much worse because probably because of the pandemic, but that was 10 years ago. That was 10 years ago, right? And so I still think people would be trading in Steve Usher (45:10) Yeah. Mmm Jessica Weickert (45:30) relationships for their phone ships. I'm serious. ⁓ And I really think that, you know, the way I don't think technology is a bad thing. And I think white mirror those guys talk about it really, really well around how technology should be used to enhance an experience, not necessarily define it. ⁓ But I think there is something happening right now. That's that's very concerning around. Steve Usher (45:33) Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Jessica Weickert (45:58) phones, especially with adolescents, around how those brief bursts of dopamine releases, you know, create this vicious addictive cycle where people are like, I would rather spend time on my phone. And I forget what the exact number is. think it was like 70 % of people say I would rather spend time on my phone than connect with another person. And so again, seeing those numbers and when you hear something like that, you're like, whoa, experiential, you know, we need to be creating more experiences to get people off their phones and to create the proper dopamine, not those brief bursts of dopamine, but the, you know, the healthy kind of dopamine that makes people get off their phones. I mean, you're seeing all of these no phone experiences now, right? Steve Usher (46:41) Hmm Yeah, there's a counter movement, definitely. And even with dumb phones and yeah, for sure. Jessica Weickert (46:54) Yeah, there's, yeah, for sure, for sure. ⁓ You know, a lot of analog type experiences, but again, going back to luxury as presence and healing being this, you know, new ⁓ status symbol, right? Is like, I think people, that's a huge reason why people want these wellness experiences, right? Is because we gotta get people off their phones, right? And so it's interesting to think about that as an experienced designer is like, you know, what if we didn't have a million screens? What if we didn't incorporate AR and, you know, bringing in people's cellular devices? Like, what would that look like? Right. So it's interesting. Steve Usher (47:37) see, I see if, I think that's something in there where ⁓ neuro-aesthetics could play a really big part is entering into a world, turning your phone off for two days and going through that process of that, of grounding back inwards for a period. There will be a space for that. I'm sure it's happening already, but yeah, I think more of that will be needed. Just meet people where they are. Just meet them where they are. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (47:53) Yeah. Totally going back. Totally going back to that in scape ism, but also doing that shared ritual with somebody. I think that's what's so powerful about going back to what you were saying about wellness experiences, about like those retreat type experiences. It's yeah, being away from your cell phone, unplugging, doing though a shared ritual with somebody and. Having that experience create that shared ritual for you that you take back with you, right? I think is really powerful. Steve Usher (48:29) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a shame that we need it so much, ⁓ it's yeah, it's one of those. ⁓ Yeah. Can I just ask as well, like just for my in scape ism, cause I really like that. Cause there's a lot of escape ism if we want it. ⁓ Cause you've mentioned it a few times. Tell me more about this. I'm really curious. Jessica Weickert (48:38) It totally is. Mmm. Yeah. well, going back to the white mirror folks when we were at WXO Summit, Ramy was talking about how the cultural zeitgeist is just so complex and complicated right now just with everything happening in the world, especially in America. And so it's not about helping people escape to another world. That's not solving mental health crisis. That's not solving loneliness. That's not solving Steve Usher (49:08) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (49:22) all of the issues that are happening, right? It's again, going back to how can we create a moment in time for someone, a micro moment like you had mentioned, a glimmer, right? Where you're able to look inward, have that introspection, connect with yourself, not necessarily connect outward, but you're connecting inward, right? Where the experience is happening inside, not necessarily outside. ⁓ And so, you know, again, that's why I think wellness is that as a sector and as an industry, we're seeing that evolve very, very quickly where, you know, community and self-care and lifestyle are all sort of blending together and really reshaping how people reflect and recharge. And it's really, again, that, that in scape ism. Steve Usher (50:20) Yeah. I feel like it's quite transactional, isn't it? If you go to a spa, generally, I know, I, you know, if you look at most menus, they pretty much read the same, like a 60 minute deep massage, right? And I don't know, I'm just getting into a crazy mode. What if we just deleted that for a minute and made each one a specific experience? Like, would that look like? And actually named it differently that gave a different narrative or intention behind it. I don't know. Jessica Weickert (50:27) Hmm Steve Usher (50:50) I might ad libbing now, but yeah, it's like challenging it. Jessica Weickert (50:50) Yeah, no, I'm with you. It's kind of like, it's like the, it's like the modern evolution of like the country club, right? Which is like, we now have these wellness social clubs, where you can go, you can meet someone, but you can also like, you know, do a cold plunge, you can do a movement class, you might go off to sit by yourself and journal somewhere. Steve Usher (50:57) you Jessica Weickert (51:15) right, with a soundscape immersing you while you do it. It's these like high vibe spaces that are allowing people to, again, not just like meet someone, but again, have that introspection. So it's kind of like, people aren't saying, it's like instead of cocktails and golf, you get the cold plunges, the movement, and also the reflection, which I think is key. Steve Usher (51:40) Yeah, I love that. Okay, so ⁓ just in terms of ⁓ a bit of a ⁓ grounding towards the end of the podcast, Jessica, ⁓ because obviously you've continuing a very successful career. ⁓ I've heard lots of good things and ⁓ reputationally, and ⁓ I would just love for you to maybe share any reflections for your like, Jessica Weickert (51:52) I love it. Steve Usher (52:10) career journey. I think there's a lot of people, you know, in the field of experience design period, we just literally had a few weeks ago, 36 students visit us in Stockholm, we hosted from Matt Durden's experience design faculty from the US. Oh my god, yeah. I, well, I had a moment of feeling like, Jessica Weickert (52:25) I love that They're all so great, those kids. They're fantastic. Steve Usher (52:36) We felt a bit old actually when they walked in the door. I don't know why I was thinking they were gonna be older and they walked in, I was like, oh my God, they're really young. Oh no, actually no, I'm really old. But wow, I mean, just super curious. I kind of, I was a bit jealous because I was like, wow, I wish I'd learned experience designing and it existed when I was that age, because it probably didn't exist in this form. Jessica Weickert (52:59) And that there's an actual major in it. Like, I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous. yeah, when I talk to those guys, I'm like, I'm sorry, there's a major now for experience design. You don't know how lucky you are. But when you talk to them, they're like, yeah, the hero's journey. And I'm like, what? It's fabulous. The future is bright, for sure. Steve Usher (53:02) Yeah, it's a thing now and I think the craft. Yeah. Yeah. You The future is bright and I love the next gen of talent. just like, would you share? know you won an award last year in North Carolina for your, yeah, I saw that. Well, congratulations. But yeah. Jessica Weickert (53:29) Yeah, Matt's kids. Yeah. thank you. Thank you. Thanks. I stalk you too. So don't worry. ⁓ Yeah, no, I, you know, I always love giving advice because I have been fortunate in my career to have just like really good people around me, really good mentors. I would say, and this is within balance, of course, but I have always been Jessica. And I like, I'm being serious is whenever there's an opportunity, raise your hand and say yes. Again, within reason, you don't want to burn yourself out. But I will say like something that I have always prided myself about is I've always tried to be the, you know, when somebody is like, hey, can someone do this? Yes. Like, let me try it. ⁓ You know, hey, we need someone to put together. I'll be the first person because it, you know, not only shows that you're taking initiative, obviously, but every experience that you have, you learn something and you gain something out of it. Steve Usher (54:21) I love that. Jessica Weickert (54:36) It's the same thing, why we design experiences, right? Where people go, we want them to gain something out of it, but it's the same thing in life, right? If you say yes, you have no idea where it might take you. I had, obviously no's are important, right? But all of the yeses that I have done leaning into being Jessica has really. brought me to where I am today and has made me make certain connections with people. It's opened doors to promotions. It's allowed me to get recognized in different ways because I simply said yes. And another thing that somebody said to me is that growth is hard. Growth is hard, right? Like doing the most uncomfortable thing seems hard, right? Prior to XDA, I... was somewhere else, I was super comfortable. I was super happy when XCA fell into my lap. You I could have said no, right? I could have said no, because I was super comfortable and everything was great. I was about to, I was pregnant and I was about to have a baby and I, you know, I was like, yeah, let's throw a new job. It's gonna be hard, but growth is hard. And so saying yes and knowing that, you know, growth is hard, but growth. Steve Usher (55:47) You Yes. Jessica Weickert (55:56) open so many doors, think is one of the best pieces of advice I've gotten. So hopefully, else will take that and run with it. Steve Usher (56:03) Yeah. And can I also ask as well, just how have you balanced ⁓ career, life, being a mom, like that journey for yourself? Because taking a role like you have done at XDA ⁓ at that particular moment in life as well, how have you navigated that? Yeah, it's quite, yeah. Jessica Weickert (56:31) Thank you for asking. That's a really thoughtful question. I really love that question. You're obviously a parent because you asked that question. ⁓ yeah, so I would say, you know, being a working mom, it's hard, but I do feel very fortunate where XDA is fully remote. We travel a lot. There has been times where I have traveled three times a month before. Steve Usher (56:38) I am. Jessica Weickert (56:58) But I have a really, really good support system. But I would say for myself, I'm always number one. Yes, my kids are number one, but meaning if I don't take care of myself, I can't take care of my kids. Right? And so that was a really hard transition from being a new mom with young kids. You're always like thinking about your kids and then you're like, oh, I haven't eaten today. Or I... Steve Usher (57:12) Yeah. Jessica Weickert (57:22) I haven't gotten a haircut in over a year, right? Or your tooth starts to hurt. You're like, I haven't been to the dentist. Right? And so it was a really hard lesson for me. It was like, oh, I need to start taking care of myself in order to be not just a better mom. know, once you're a better person in your personal life, everything else just falls into place everywhere else. Right? And so I noticed that the moment I started taking care of myself better, Steve Usher (57:29) Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (57:51) career was great, home was great, but most importantly, myself was great, right? And so that I would say, you I do a lot of meditation. I'm going through Transcendental Meditation right now, TM. Yeah. And it's a lot, it's, have to meditate twice a day for 20 minutes. ⁓ And it's finding that time and you, you, you've got to do it. We just went to our company summit and 55 people there, right? And I was like, Steve Usher (58:05) Nice. Mm. Jessica Weickert (58:20) gotta go, gotta go back to my hotel room and get those 20 minutes in, right? And it's being disciplined about that. But that has, I would say, bringing in that mind works has been really, really powerful and important for me in terms of feeling like I'm in the right head space. Steve Usher (58:24) Yep. Yeah, well a lot of that obviously is in energy and frequency and maintaining. Yeah, it's super important. Super important. ⁓ we could get into that separate podcast. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (58:45) Yes! For sure, for sure. I know, no, for sure. mean, but it's like, it's remembering to drink water. It's like little things. it's going, like, it's like learning what you learn in experience design and applying it to your life. Honestly, it's like those micro moments, drinking water, doing meditation, going on a walk, increasing the neuroplasticity in your brain. Instead of taking the same route every single day when I walk my dog, I take a different route, right? It's thinking, it's... Steve Usher (58:58) Hmm. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (59:22) I seriously applied neuroscience to my life every single day. It can be as simple as moving around furniture in your house. It can be, I'm not gonna take this call today at my house, I'm gonna go to a coffee shop today, a coffee shop that I haven't tried before. It's all of those things, but again, it's increasing that neuroplasticity in your brain and really trying to going back to the energy frequencies and maintaining that. Steve Usher (59:29) Yep. Yep. Definitely. my God, I love all of that. That's that you're talking my field right now. No, we're not. Jessica Weickert (59:56) Yeah, my husband thinks I'm crazy. He walks in, he walks in, he's like, ⁓ we moved the furniture again. I'm like, it's good for our children. It's good for our children. Steve Usher (1:00:07) Well, apparently here's something for you, because I've moved country. ⁓ Might be another one on the go as well soon, but there is a, there was a start. Apparently when you move country, you basically, it's one of the best things you can do for your brain because you remove all of the automations, like where do I go for a pizza? Where's my dentist? Where do I get the bus from? Which bus from A to B? Like all those like automatic patterns that we have. Jessica Weickert (1:00:12) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Yeah. Steve Usher (1:00:35) and you are effectively deleting them and having to relearn all of that again in a new environment completely. And the amount of times I got on the bus the wrong way ⁓ or, you know, trying to figure out, God, where's the doctor located? It was just, you know, and it makes sense. It takes a while and then you get into your routines and then you start to settle in as it is. So that I relate to that a lot and I meditate every day. So I definitely relate to that, what you said. yeah. Jessica Weickert (1:01:01) you do too. Yeah, you should look in. I mean, there's so many different types of meditation. TM has been Steve Usher (1:01:05) lights. Jessica Weickert (1:01:07) the best for me in terms of just having, and you have your safe word, right? Where seriously, like you lock in, like before a presentation, I say it. If I go on stage, I say it. Like, and it's really powerful, but no, you're not allowed to share your safe word. So just letting you know. Steve Usher (1:01:26) No, and it's, I encourage anybody. I think it's important to create space for yourself and having a daily practice, regardless of what that is, I think is an important thing just to go inward. I think it's very important, very important today. We're just, oh, we are overloaded. We're just absolutely overloaded by information content, yeah. Jessica Weickert (1:01:42) Yeah, I do too. It's information overload. I mean, about everything, about everything. Like being a mom, it's like, here are 47 ways on how to put your kid down for a nap. And you're like, oh, I just want one way, please. I just want one way, right? Yeah, no, it's ridiculous. It's too much. It's too much. But going back to the meditation piece, what I love about it, and somebody said this to me before, what meditation helps do, it's like, imagine you have an ocean. Steve Usher (1:02:01) You Jessica Weickert (1:02:17) right, of a million water particles, it helps you zoom in on that one particle, just one drop of water and being able to focus on that, right, and see clearly. Like you can see how it moves, you can see how it grows maybe, right? It's being able to focus on that one piece of ⁓ a giant, chaotic puzzle, right? And it's... Steve Usher (1:02:23) Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Weickert (1:02:44) It's really, it's been really beneficial again in both professional and personal. Steve Usher (1:02:49) Personal, yeah. I mean, you're bringing in that intentionality into that practice. ⁓ Yeah. my God, I can relate to it so much. It's so good. ⁓ What a lovely way to end the podcast as well. ⁓ Jessica, thank you so much. I am ⁓ eternally grateful for you joining the podcast and contributing to the experience designers. ⁓ It's great to connect with you and yeah, thank you for ⁓ joining. Jessica Weickert (1:02:58) I love it. I love it. Me too. Likewise, likewise. And thank you for inviting me here and for the conversation. It's always such a such a pleasure and just really, really appreciate your time and your energy and just your thoughtfulness. So thank you. Steve Usher (1:03:32) Thank you. And just a quick question as well. How do people contact you? What's the best way to get in contact with you if they want to learn more about the work you're doing or meditation or just saying yes more? ⁓ How can people contact you? Jessica Weickert (1:03:40) Yes. ⁓ Absolutely, Friend me on LinkedIn. I'm a big LinkedIn user. You can also send me an email. It's jessica.wykert at xdagency.com. Always down to chat. You know, hit me up. I'd love to chat. Steve Usher (1:04:00) Amazing. I'll put all the links in the show notes as well for those to make it easier for everyone. So brilliant. But thank you. Thank you. Jessica Weickert (1:04:05) Fantastic. Thank you, Steve.