Laura Hess - 500 Experiences in 5 Years. A quest for the remarkable!

Steve Usher (00:00) So Laura, welcome to the Experience Designers podcast. Laura (00:05) Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and to chat with you. Steve Usher (00:09) going to be good. I'm so excited. And ⁓ one of the reasons why I'm so excited is I'm getting to spend some time with somebody who set a goal to explore 500 experiences in five years. So let's start from that place. Let's share with the audience that context and that journey and some of the decisions I guess that were made. to undertake such an amazing journey. ⁓ Laura (00:44) Well, it wasn't, I mean, I've been really clear with everybody about this. This was not, I never started out with that as a goal. This project started in 2020 and I did not realize it at the time. So with the pandemic's onset ⁓ in March, April of 2020, I did what a lot of people did. I mean, aside from like, I don't know, I didn't bake bread, but ⁓ did some puzzles at home. And I was so impressed by how many creators pivoted incredibly quickly. And there was remote online work that was being launched in April, in May. I mean, it was incredibly fast. And I just dove into all of that remote work. was, I mean, it was a way for me to process what we were going through. It was a way to connect with other people. ⁓ and, and through that, I was just kind of ravenous in terms of wanting to explore more of these productions. So it started there where I was just, again, trying to process what we were living through, wanting to connect with people and then really wanting to understand from a design perspective. I felt like people were being very innovative. I mean, some things worked and some things didn't, but I tip my hat to everybody who was trying. And a lot of the things that were working were working beautifully. So that was the inception of the project. But again, it didn't have any framework around it at that point. And then it was at the end of 2023. So in 2021, things started to open up a bit more. And it was by the end of 2023 that I looked at my trustee spreadsheet and I was like, Okay, I've done 300 productions in four years. And what do I want to do with this? What am I trying to do for myself? Is there something that I want to do that might kind of be live more within the community or within the industry? And again, I think at that point, I still, you you don't know what you don't know. And so I then just set it as a numerical goal. And I was like, okay, let's try to do 500 in 5 years. I mean, I love alliteration. I loved the symmetry, ⁓ the numerical symmetry. And so I just set it as a goal in that way. But that meant going to, attending, seeing, participating in 200 productions in one year, which required a lot of organization. ⁓ And so I started on that path. And again, I think that the, mean, I'm just relentlessly curious and there's so much great work out there. And I, so I, I just kept on that path. And so I've reached that. And once I got to the fall of last year, I knew like, what is beyond this? I don't want this to just be from like a consumption point of view. I'm not competing with anybody this 505 years. It's not, it's not just to try to consume. And what can be of value, both for me and again, potentially outwardly. And that's when I started thinking like, you know, write a report, white paper, something. At that time, didn't have any, ⁓ I wasn't anticipating that I was going to try to develop an evaluation framework. Because again, at that time, I was just trying to go and I was trying to experience and explore. ⁓ And so I wasn't yet trying to evaluate. And it wasn't until then, I really tried to like look at, because I didn't have access to data from these different companies, the financiers, the producers. I didn't know necessarily what, or certainly didn't have comprehensive data for each production of like, how much money did this make? What was the attendance? And again, I wasn't really interested in that anyway. Not that I don't care about that. Not that that's not important, but I was really looking at like, what have I learned? How do I feel? What has stayed with me and why is that important? And how can that inform at least how I approach experience design? So I didn't have a sense of, again, developing an evaluation framework at that point. And then as I started to lean in again, the end of last year until like, is a value here? Steve Usher (05:16) Yeah. Hmm. ⁓ Laura (05:25) and how do I want to distill down what I've learned from this, then I started thinking about we need a different evaluation tool. So that's the overview. Steve Usher (05:35) Yeah. And I think it's come at a beautiful time because there's such a burgeoning, mean, the experience economy generally is growing so, so much, both in the US and in Europe, particularly in London. Can I ask, like, thinking about this undertaking and the list that you accumulated and that relentless curiosity that you had, ⁓ What does that say about you? How does that represent Laura ⁓ as a person? How would you describe that? Laura (06:13) I mean, I think that I'm... I know in the most recent episode with Pigalle, I'll probably reference Pigalle quite a bit. ⁓ I think that there's two things that I see really consistently in our industry. And I'm referring to the experiential industry very broadly. I think a lot of people come to this space having very robust sort of Swiss army knives of skills and talents. And a lot of people come to it through a more circuitous path. And they've worked across different disciplines and different mediums and formats. And I definitely fall into that group. I started off in the theater like a lot of people. So I do think there is a commonality there that there's a lot of theater nerds that have joined together in the experiential industry. And I think with good reason, ⁓ I think what the theater fosters, that makes a lot of sense to me. ⁓ And I think the other thing, so we have this robust Swiss army knife. And I think the other thing is I really do believe there's so many of us that are investigators, which is what Pigal referenced at one point, really kind of having that investigative hat that we feel comfortable putting on or that we just feel like we can't resist putting on. And it is, again, it's completely integrated with that curiosity of like, What do I want to say? What do I want to do? How do I want to show up in the world? How do I want other people to feel seen and heard and valued and like they matter? And I think that's such an essential part of what's happening culturally today. I think all the isolation and we're talking about this loneliness epidemic and the rise of AI. And I think there's so many different issues, the climate crisis, the political landscape. And I think these things really dovetail with ultimately, I think that curiosity comes from a place of ⁓ wanting to be seen, wanting to, and so how do I want to be seen? How do I want to live in the world? How do I want to show up in the world? How do I want to be seen? And hoping that other people can feel seen and heard and valued as well. I think it's really primal. Steve Usher (08:40) Beautiful. Love that. And also the power of experiences as well. The impact you can have. You shared some of the kind of the dynamics that we have in the world right now. You know, we're going to no doubt delve a little bit into potentially transformative, but it's, you know, these are havens and can be havens for exploration, for stepping outside of the ordinary world and yeah, diving into something completely new and different for a period of time that could be seen as a relief or. a period of exploration or learning as well. it's, yeah, these are powerful things. These are super powerful and only growing. So for those, let's let's dive into the the the 500 experiences. There was a quote, and I really wanted to just pull this from the from the from the white paper that was produced actually, because when I read it, was like, Oh, this is cool. So it says, as I explored hundreds of productions, Laura (09:31) Okay. Steve Usher (09:38) I sought a way to convey the unique power of what I was experiencing. So just tell us a little bit more, like bring to life on how you constructed that with the model that you created, how it kind of become representation of that. Laura (09:55) Well, have to, I really want to acknowledge ⁓ both the WXO and Anton Yurgis and his creative agency, We Are Collider. So that was another, there were a couple of key inflection moments along this journey. And this was in early 2023 that he gave a campfire, WXO campfire about a different framework. This was a design framework called Marvels. And he walked us through the acronym and what it represents. And there's a, mean, I believe it's still available, public download of the white paper that we are Collider produced. And I thought it was so interesting. really resonated with me. There was something about it as a design framework that lingered in my mind and kind of, it felt really comprehensive. It felt like, okay, they're taking ⁓ incredible scientific data and really merging that with this more qualitative data that ⁓ I think a lot of times it's really difficult to obtain, it's difficult to digest and parse out, and I think it's absolutely essential. And so I spent time with that and I couldn't, I don't know, think there was an itch there that I didn't quite know how to scratch around. Again, it wasn't a conscious thought at that point, but there was just something about Marvels. thought it was beautifully produced, designed, and it stayed with me. And then it was again, when I got to the fall of 2023 and thinking about like, okay, what am I going to do with this? And later the fall of 2024, when I approached that 500 marker and I tried to adapt Marvels and sort of shoehorn it. I mean, it's a design framework. It's not an evaluation tool. So I was, I tried to adapt it and kind of shoehorn it. And that's not what it was meant for. That's not what it was designed for. And so that's when I thought I have to create something because this is immensely frustrating that I cannot capture even just for myself. Let's say I had never written anything, published anything about this. Let's say this remained purely a personal goal. It was frustrating for me to not be able to capture how I felt about experiences. I have this spreadsheet, it's broken down into different categories, ⁓ types of experiences, broken down into, it remote, in person? I was tracking how long I spent at the experience, cost. Those are important, but... Nothing was capturing how I felt about an experience. And that was immensely frustrating. And so that's when I started working on the rubric and trying to figure out what, what could that look like and just really playing around and, and, going through an iterative process, because initially it was a, I it's a weighted system. ⁓ but initially it was almost equal weighting. And so I ran it through, was, was running it through this remarkable rubric that I developed, but it wasn't working. I was running it through the spreadsheet. was scoring these experiences and I was like, this still doesn't work. And it's still not capturing in a way that I feel like is where it needs to be. So I kept kind of banging away at it. And I do feel like where, where I am right now, where remarkable is right now is a really solid. Will it evolve? I hope so. But I think that it at least gave me then a different framework to think about how I felt about the experiences. It's such an important part. I mean, from all the scientists and researchers who are experts in the field and on these moments of reflection that we have afterwards, I mean, of course, being in the moment, in the experience, connecting with other people, whether it's connecting with a Steve Usher (13:43) Mm. Laura (14:09) performer, connecting with a total stranger who's a fellow participant, connecting with someone you came with ⁓ in a new way, connecting with yourself. mean, know like, we'll probably talk about this a bit, but like learning new things about yourself in an experience. But such an essential part of all of that is that reflection process. And ⁓ so it was so helpful for me to feel like Steve Usher (14:18) Mmm. Absolutely. Laura (14:38) I mean, think, you know, it's dangerous to try to like rank art or score entertainment. think it's all these systems, they're all flawed to some degree, but it was so helpful for me to feel like I had something that captured how I felt. Steve Usher (14:45) Mm. Yeah, awesome. And can we dive a little bit into the Remarkable model just for the audience? Can we walk through what each of the components are in the framework and give a little bit more context to that? Laura (15:09) Yeah, you have so so remarkable is the name and it is an acronym. I feel like we have to have loads of acronyms in the world. So you have 10 components, there's 10 letters. And so the way that that breaks down is resonance, exchange, magic, adequacy, recommend knowledge, allocate bond. legend and engrossing. So those are the 10 components and each of those has at least one question. So if someone listening or watching right now downloads the report, I walk through all of it. So there's at least one question for each of those 10 components. For resonance, there's actually two questions. So was it emotionally affecting? And that can be anything. That can be that you were just delighted. It doesn't have to be, and again, I know we'll probably dive into this. It doesn't have to be transformative. It doesn't have to be that you were completely slack jawed with wonder, although that would be amazing. It doesn't mean that you have to be sobbing. But so the full spectrum of emotion, but was there an emotional response? Was it emotionally affecting? Steve Usher (16:24) you Laura (16:34) And then as I was working through the rubric, I felt like there was another key point, and this is where resonance is one that is weighted. ⁓ And the second component, the second question, or the second aspect of that component is, did it live on for you? Like, did you find yourself revisiting that experience? Did you want to relive it in your mind? So more around like real kind of that you actively wanted to go to again. And that happened more rarely. I mean, and I think it's wonderful to go to an experience and feel like, I'm delighted. I'm so happy I did this. But it doesn't necessarily live on and it doesn't necessarily have to live on in your mind. So that's an example of one of the components. Steve Usher (17:31) Amazing. And can you also share how did you categorize all of those different experiences? I know it's in the report, just to give it also for those listening that go, okay, cool, but you've gone to 500, but God, was, how could we maybe give some buckets for people to think about the types of experiences that you explored? Laura (17:53) Right, so I wanted this to, I wanted the rubric to encompass as many aspects of the experiential industry as possible. So the categories range from things like participatory or immersive theater to location-based themed entertainment, ⁓ XR, could be AR or VR. ⁓ spatial audio, so more of an immersive audio type of experience. ⁓ And so I didn't want this to, and I should spotlight actually installation and interactive art because I do feel like, I feel like there's a lot of focus on ⁓ themed entertainment, immersive theater, games and escape rooms, which I mean, they're absolutely worthy of that attention. I feel like, and this is a ⁓ larger systemic problem, ⁓ but I feel like installation art tends to be more siloed. think we have a, broadly, think we have a siloing problem across the entire industry, but I feel like there are some titans of the installation and interactive art category like TeamLab or Meow Wolf. ⁓ But I think then in terms of galleries, Steve Usher (19:13) Yes. Laura (19:19) and some museum shows, they tend to be, in my opinion, underrepresented within the community, within the industry. feel like museums, I mean, these tend to be more conservative institutions. They tend to move at a slower pace, not all of them, but, ⁓ and I think there hasn't been, I don't feel like I've seen that kind of cross-pollination between fine art and experiential entertainment as much. And it's the only in the report, so there's eight case studies and I made a very specific choice that I didn't want the case studies to be like, okay, this is the experiential marketing case study. This is the themed entertainment case study. I think we're at our best when there is that cross pollination. Steve Usher (19:54) Yeah. No. Laura (20:15) and really interesting hybrid models that wind up being, you know, kind of amazing paradigms of innovation. So the only case study that is actually just of one ⁓ category is the immersive fine art case study. And I really wanted to spotlight, and there are gallery shows, there's a case study called Beyond Cognition. Steve Usher (20:45) Hmm. ⁓ Laura (20:45) There's a gallery show that is spotlighted in that case study, but I really wanted to feel like that was being brought more into the fold. ⁓ So that gives a sense of the case studies and the different categories in the report. And, and because I was going to so many different things, because that's what I wanted to do, that's what I was interested in. And because I feel like any evaluation rubric, any sort of attempt to quantify return on experience. it needed to be applicable broadly. I mean, I just felt like it wasn't going to be helpful to me and definitely not of service to anyone else to have some sort of evaluation tool that only applied to immersive theater or only applied to escape rooms. So that was ⁓ a key component to developing the rubric and figuring out. Steve Usher (21:18) Yeah, great. Laura (21:41) you know, how, again, how can these different aspects apply? And they don't, and I think, you know, you and I have actually talked about this before, like, not everything has to, and there's a really important point for me that I wanna make, because I think that the scoring requires a perspective shift, and I think we'll talk about that later, but also that the rubric is not an indication or a mandate. Steve Usher (21:50) you Yeah. Laura (22:11) that every experience needs to tick off all of those boxes, that it needs Steve Usher (22:15) you Laura (22:16) to have all of those components. That is absolutely not true. There are some experiences that simply don't have elements that are going to lead you to score on a certain component. And so this is not any kind of a list. It's not a checklist at all. And I found that when productions were included, Steve Usher (22:24) . Laura (22:41) incredibly intentional about what they were doing, there was often a cascade effect. So other components would tend to score higher. But there are some experiences that didn't score very high from like an academic standpoint, you know, using traditional systems, traditional scoring systems. And yet these were Steve Usher (22:59) Mm. Laura (23:05) fantastic shows that I recommended that I felt like were time well spent, attention well spent and money well spent. But they didn't necessarily score high. It's a 25 point system. An example I use in the report scored a 12 and it was a recommended show. That's a great show. And I can get into the thresholds at some point. But so I think there's a perspective shift around the scoring and then on the flip side from like a design standpoint. Steve Usher (23:10) Mm. Yeah. Laura (23:34) This framework is not a checklist. You don't have to have everything. There's some ⁓ exchange is the second letter and the second component. And one of the questions is, it interactive? Not everything has to be interactive. Not everything needs to be interactive. So it's not a design flaw if a production isn't scoring for that. But there are so many experiences that are interactive, that are participatory. Steve Usher (23:53) No. Laura (24:04) And I think it's worth noting that when it does include that. So yeah. Steve Usher (24:08) you Love that. just because let's go around in this for a moment because I think this is something that's that is important. And for anybody curious to download the report and take whatever you want from it, learning and insights. But I think explain the rubric for a moment, because I think this is really interesting around that this is not a score. This isn't kind of out of 25. If you're a 24, you're ranking one at one of the highest. ⁓ As you see your point, a 12 demonstrated it was was still a great experience. Just share the rubric and how you got to that way of measurement, I guess, and also how it works. Laura (24:49) It was a surprise to me. I mean, I think it's worth noting that like, again, I didn't go into this having, I knew there were certain things that I needed. And because I needed this, I wanted this to be broadly applicable to all kinds of different productions. I started scoring, so I spent time kind of hammering out the rubric just initially. I mean, just coming up with, OK, what's a word that could even, you know, I had a sense. And I think, again, Marvel's was a great. And there's loads of other design frameworks out there that are worth highlighting. ⁓ But I think it was an initial guidepost. And then once I felt like. Okay, I think this actually, I think these 10 components, I think this is actually what I'm looking for. And as I mentioned, initially it was all weighted equally with the sole exception, magic was in there and that was the sole exception, that was weighted more heavily. Everything else was equally weighted. And so I started scoring the experiences from 2024. I made it through, I think, 65 of them. Steve Usher (25:58) you Laura (26:09) And I was like, this does not work. Because I would look at what is the score versus how do I feel about it? And it felt so disproportionate. But then that also started giving me a sort of foundation around, again, feels like really tricky territory to just be scoring art and entertainment. So I started getting a sense of like what feels right. And so after I scored those 65 and was like, this is not I, because certain productions don't have certain elements, I realized, it's missing when it does, it's not being emphasized where some of these things are happening. In that initial scoring, I started to see, okay, the second part of resonance not Steve Usher (27:01) . Laura (27:01) being scored very often. Knowledge, did I learn something new about myself, which is the second. Steve Usher (27:03) You Laura (27:08) part of knowledge. The first part of knowledge is like, did I learn something new? I feel curious? Did it incite curiosity? Did I learn something new? Which is great and which is much more applicable to more productions. But did I learn something new about myself was so much rarer. Engrossing. Did I feel like I was in a flow state? That was much rarer. Wasn't scored as often. So that's when I started tinkering more with the waiting. And then I ran it. So I revised the rubric. Steve Usher (27:13) . Mmm. Laura (27:38) And then I ran that through all 200 productions and I felt like it still wasn't, it was better, but it still wasn't quite there. And that's when I went back and adjusted the weighting again and refined some of the components, some of their questions. And then I ran it through a third time and I felt like, okay, this matches more how I feel. And then I started looking at the patterns and was feeling like, okay, I need to see. Steve Usher (27:48) Mm. Laura (28:08) Is there consistency across, again, am I feeling like whether it's an escape room, whether it's immersive theater, ⁓ whether it's installation art, do I feel like it's representative of how I felt about the production? And does it feel consistent between the different categories? And then I started looking for different patterns and I was like, okay, this is not what I thought was going to happen, but there's three thresholds. Steve Usher (28:19) Cool. Laura (28:38) and it's 10, 12, and 15. So a production that scored under 10, it missed the mark in fundamental ways. But there's not a big gap between 10 and 12. And yet that's what I was seeing when I was looking at what scored between a 12 and a 14, as I was kind of reordering the data and looking for patterns. I found that Steve Usher (28:46) Okay. Hmm. Laura (29:07) productions that scored a 12 or higher, and it wound up being that window between 12 and 15. These were not transformative. These were not experiences that I necessarily was wanting to relive. I didn't necessarily feel like I was in a flow state. But these were experiences that they met basic expectations. It was clear to me what my role was. It was clear to me what the story was. Steve Usher (29:14) Yeah. Laura (29:36) ⁓ they were emotionally affecting. Again, did I relive them? No, but they were enjoyable. And, again, did it feel like time, attention, money well spent? Did I recommend it to someone? And when I started to do those tallies and started to see those patterns, I was like, these were quality shows. These were shows that I was glad to have experienced. Steve Usher (29:44) Hmm. Hmm. Laura (30:05) And they meant something to me. Again, they weren't at the top of my list, but I was really glad to have experienced them. And then it was a 15 that was the third threshold. And the way that I realized I should be saying this is that it's a 25 point system. 25 is the highest score, but 15 in my opinion is the most important score. Because that is where these were high. Steve Usher (30:30) Interesting. Laura (30:34) value experiences where I felt like I was in a flow state where I learned something new about myself. They were sensorial. I felt transported. I wanted to relive the experience. And there's not, even though it sounds like a big divide, in actuality between 15 and 25, this is where you're actually getting more into nuance and granular details around the design. And again, Steve Usher (31:00) Yeah. Laura (31:02) Some experiences just don't include certain components and that's not necessarily a problem or design flaw. But I was really surprised by that. That was not, I never went into developing the rubric or the weighting and figuring out the scoring and the point system. I never anticipated that the thresholds would be kind of so low ⁓ relative to other scoring systems that I'm certainly familiar with. Steve Usher (31:24) Yeah. What does that say? Laura (31:33) Arvina. Steve Usher (31:34) It's an interesting way. I'm curious. I'm like, yeah, cool. So yeah, what does that say about what is needed for us ⁓ as humans, maybe? I don't know. It's just a question. ⁓ Laura (31:49) I think it's a great question. And I think that I don't want to diminish transformative experiences because they're extraordinary. But again, I really think it spotlights that not everything has to be transformative and that there is meaningful connection, again, with other people, within yourself, within an environment, within an object, ⁓ that can be really rich and fulfilling. And I don't think that we need to always be striving for transformative experiences. I don't think we can necessarily design that way that we're aiming for. think it can be, ⁓ I think what I love about the transformation conversation is care, is how it indicates that we're going to approach designing an experience with a lot of care. a lot of thoughtfulness, a lot of intentionality. But we can't design for transformation. I we can't determine what those results or outputs are going to be. And I think it's not up to us to decide what the meaning is. People will come to that on their own. And there will be a huge range. This was another thing actually that Pigal was talking about, and I so appreciate it, I so agree. ⁓ Steve Usher (32:52) Yeah. Yeah. Laura (33:16) I had a fantastic conversation yesterday with a researcher and she's doing amazing work around audience participation. And I mean, it's resource heavy work. I mean, to do that ethnographic research, to talk to people. And we're so quick to decide that we think we know even what we want. Steve Usher (33:25) Okay. Laura (33:43) And we see time and time again that we don't know what we want and we certainly don't know what other people want. And so to try to create a container where meaning can be made, can be fostered, I think is, that's the crucial element. And I found that with those, I guess, again, lower scoring, Steve Usher (34:04) I agree. Laura (34:10) it really emphasized that it does not have to be transformative. It does not have to be. And some of the experiences where I know we talked about this too, like. ⁓ It wasn't always what I thought it was going to be in terms of like, there were very short experiences that had a huge impact on me. There were longer experiences that, not as much, or again, whether it's the cost, things that were free that I will have or just cherished memories. So I think, yeah, we can't, there's just so much that we don't know and... Steve Usher (34:30) Mm. you Laura (34:48) We wind up being really surprised by when we do that research around audience participation, what was meaningful, where did they feel like they were making a meaningful choice, what lived on for them. That was another aspect of the rubric that I was so frustrated by with traditional evaluation metrics. I've talked about some of these shows, some of these productions to many, many people over the course of years, things that have really stayed with me. Steve Usher (35:16) Yeah. Yeah. Laura (35:16) How do you capture that? How do you capture that long tail of feeling so connected to something and so impacted by something? And so again, traditional evaluation metrics, don't give you that picture. And I'm trying to figure out how we can capture more of that because... Steve Usher (35:21) Yeah. Laura (35:38) I mean, that to me is the goal, whether it involves actual transformation and behavioral shift or something that just really stayed with you because it was beautiful, it was funny, ⁓ it was profound. I mean, that's what I wanna try to figure out. Steve Usher (35:38) Okay. Yeah, my mind goes to, know, if we're going to, if more and more experiences are going to be created, because of what I mean, this could anything be from a brand activation to, you know, immersive theater to anything in between. I'm a, I've got a slight and I'm an optimist. a blind optimist actually. but there's this thing of, I've got a concern that we might also get lost in that as well. Like becomes too, you know, like any industry where it grows and it starts to burgeon and get lots of investment. And does that danger as well of it becoming too commercial and too geared towards, you know, really maximizing IP to, do you see what I mean? So I just got, I've got this other element. concern that I, me as well around, yeah, this is, I think we're, it's in a good phase right now. You, you, I think you're well placed because you've, you've really looked into the industry across so many different, verticals around experiences. What do you see with that in terms of the ones that were profound and had a really big impact on you or the ones that slightly more transactional or the ones that were slightly more maybe commercial and. So behind that is quite an interesting word that you've mentioned a couple of times, which is this intentionality beyond the experience. And therefore, if we thought about it from that perspective, how would the rubric also, what would the rubric tell us around how those different experiences were? If we've kind of looked at through an intentionality lens, whether it was more commercial focused, because there are ones that are all about, not all about, but they're about commercial. The other ones are about impact or. education or meaningful or whatever that jam might be. So yeah, just curious. Laura (37:51) I just give me the, know. Steve Usher (37:52) Hahaha Laura (37:59) Give me a like softball Steve. I mean, you know these big questions I mean, no, I'm delighted to I'm delighted to take a stab at it. But like my goodness No, it's but it's a it's a it's an important question in all seriousness. It is ⁓ I Think that the word transactional is really important. So I mean you can feel that and I Think that's okay to a certain degree ⁓ Steve Usher (38:06) Sorry. Laura (38:28) Let me back up for a second. So I think in terms of intentionality, That's that threshold of a 10. ⁓ That it wasn't just an execution issue in terms of like, there was something that didn't work from a production standpoint, from a technical standpoint. ⁓ You can really see beyond a lot of those things. And again, it's not that every production has to have everything. I two productions that are the highest scoring in the report have almost no production design. No tech, no set, no lighting. I mean, it's incredibly minimal. But the intentionality is there. And so those wound up being very profound experiences for me. So I think things that scored under a 10, they did not know what they wanted to be. They did not know some aspects of either the story. They didn't know who this was for. It wasn't able to reach its intended audience. there was ⁓ band-aiding or again, trying to leverage certain production aspects in ways that the team, again, didn't understand, wasn't clear on. ⁓ So I think that's in terms of intentionality, I think there were problems and that was fundamentally clear with anything that was scoring under a 10. ⁓ And then, mean, the example that I keep using, which is, I mean, this is where, ⁓ people might just really laugh who have spoken with me before and please do, but the reference point, and I mentioned this in the report and it was another inflection moment for me around this whole process was technically an experiential marketing activation. So the French luxury brand Hermes. Steve Usher (39:58) Thank Mmm. Laura (40:23) is a real outlier. And I think it's important to start with those details because this is not a conventional company and it's not, it doesn't have a conventional approach. And I do think it's an interesting model or reference point. So the company is still family owned. And my understanding through, I haven't spoken to anyone at the company, but my understanding through online research is that they don't have a marketing department. So it's a luxury brand. There's incredibly high standard of excellence and a real artisanal approach, I mean, incredible craftsmanship. they had, this was in the summer in Los Angeles of 2023, and the show is called On the Wings of Hermes. It actually just popped up again recently in Miami, I think last month. Steve Usher (41:12) Bye Laura (41:13) So initially Steve Usher (41:13) bye. Laura (41:14) it started in Paris and then it toured. went to Tokyo, Shanghai. LA was the only US stop. And I think it was also in Taipei and Hong Kong. And this was experiential marketing without the marketing. That's how I describe it. I mean, there were no QR codes. There was no gift shop. It was a completely unshoppable event. There was an opening night VIP invite only experience. Steve Usher (41:36) Okay. Laura (41:43) But beyond that, there were 24 shows that were free and open to the public. you did, due to capacity limitations, you did have to RSVP. So they have my email address. I've never received a promotional email since then. This was not on their social channels. And there wasn't a lot of press. There was like a write-up in Vogue that was mainly focused on like the VIP night. but it was minimal, was mainly photographs. There just wasn't a lot of press. It wasn't about generating, going viral or generating millions of impressions, et cetera, et cetera. So what is it? What was it? It wound up being this incredible fusion of cinematic and theatrical magic. Hermes worked collaboratively with an incredible Belgian team of a director, choreographer and a dance company. Steve Usher (42:34) Hmm. Laura (42:41) and they created, it is difficult to describe. You would think I would be better at describing it by now because I've said it to so many people, but I do think, I just think nothing really compares to the video, to the imagery of the show. But I went to this and the main focus here is that I felt completely welcomed. I don't own anything by this brand. It's at a price point that is well beyond my range. Steve Usher (42:46) I'm Okay. ⁓ Laura (43:08) I don't necessarily, I can appreciate the craftsmanship, but I don't necessarily covet anything by this brand. I didn't have any real prior relationship with Hermes. And so I went and it was, I was slack jawed. was actually, no, it was the opposite. I was smiling the whole time so hard that my jaw like hurt. I had to kind of massage it as I was walking to my car afterwards. Steve Usher (43:35) I'm sorry. Laura (43:37) Like it was, so I encourage, I mean, I'll just say that like there was, I mean, there was puppetry, there was a sense of humor. There were these miniature sets that were then filmed in real time. And like, it was extraordinary. And I felt, like I said, I felt so welcomed. One person that I had mentioned this to had said like, oh, this sounds like something for the 1%. And I said, it's not. I mean, again, free, open to the public and not free and open to the public. Steve Usher (43:52) Now. Laura (44:07) one day. I mean, it was over the course of eight days and 24 performances. And it was so charming. It was relentlessly charming. And it was sort of described by Hermes as an ode to daydreaming, which it absolutely was. And so I left. And then again, like, that's it. There was no, it did not feel transactional. Steve Usher (44:08) Hmm. Laura (44:33) And what it ultimately seems like to me is that Hermes' goal, again, I haven't spoken with anyone at the company. I don't know the true goals, but when we look at traditional evaluation metrics and we look at our key performance indicators, this kind of, I mean, a total outlier. It just bucked any of those trends, any of those standards. And so it's operating in its own way. And I think it's really about my take on it is that it's really about becoming part of cultural discourse or maintaining cultural discourse. Hermes is it's luxury and they have, mean, because it's luxury, they do have incredible resources. I don't want to minimize that, but the resources were being used in a way that felt like a gift. It didn't feel transactional. It didn't feel like I'm trying to sell you something. It. Steve Usher (44:54) Smile. ⁓ Laura (45:24) felt more like a conversation, that this like beautiful artistic conversation. so I think that, and I have sent, I mentioned to some WXO folks, have, Hermes has a new experience that's launching in New York this month. And I was looking at the photos and it looks like it's beautiful design. I don't know that it's quite as, ⁓ I mean, this was a very involved and complex production. There was nothing, it was very extensive, like very impressive. So there's nothing small about it. It did not look like something that's easy to tour, et cetera. So I've asked some WXO ⁓ members, some fellow members to go and I mean, listen to me, I've turned into this brand evangelist for Hermes and there's nothing, but I'm not, I'm not. Steve Usher (45:59) Yes. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Laura (46:20) quote unquote, getting anything out of it other than I got so much joy out of that experience. And so what does that mean? What does that mean? Does Hermes know that? I I've talked about it so much that I do wonder if at some point someone would be like, okay. Steve Usher (46:23) Hmm. Yeah. Well, it goes to your point, Of that propensity to share afterwards on a long tail. You know, we have those stories and experiences that we share with others when the time, when we feel the time is right, we're in an exchange of sharing something in these kind of social contexts or whatever context. But they are incredibly powerful. I'm curious, what do you think? If you just had to kind of hypothesize for a second, what do you think was like truly, like what do you think the intention, the real intention behind to put, to stay something globally, multiple city stop. what, do you think was behind that? And what, cause I think there's, there's some learning in here, think for any, for organizations, for other brands for, cause I think there's something, I don't know what it is. I'm not trying to get anything specific, but I think it's something really interesting in this. Um, Laura (47:29) I mean, I do think it's what we talk about. do think that it is about, it's about relationships. think it is about connectivity and relationships. And I mean, sure, you can talk about it in terms of like brand affinity, but I don't ever think about it in that way to myself. Again, I can sort of joke around and say, I've essentially become this incredible brand evangelist. But what's at the root of that is that I cherished that experience. And like I said, it felt like a gift. So. Steve Usher (47:58) Mm. Laura (47:59) I don't know for sure, but again, I feel like it was a cultural exchange. I don't know what the fundamental goal was for Hermes because cultural discourse, one of the ways that we measure that is around press, is around like how much is that being shared? And I don't know what the... ⁓ I don't, haven't, I mean, it was a real, I'm very grateful to have gotten to experience it because it did not go to a lot of markets. ⁓ I'm glad that it seems like they are still touring it. The fact that it was just in Miami. It's definitely not an easy production, like I said, to tour, move around. So I don't know for sure, but it really feels like this was about, Steve Usher (48:40) Mm. Laura (48:55) a cultural exchange. And I think if that was part of the goal or was the goal, it absolutely delivered. ⁓ Do I think that Hermes is trying to... Steve Usher (48:59) you Laura (49:11) I mean, I don't think similar to our transformation conversation, I don't get the sense that. just don't get the sense that there is a transactional component. It is still marketing. I mean, we can't take that away from it, but every time I think about this production and I talk about it, it truly felt like something that was given to me. It did not feel transactional. So my relationship with this brand has completely shifted, but you can't see that. Steve Usher (49:25) No. Yeah. . Okay. Laura (49:49) I didn't, there's no sales conversion. There's no, again, traditional model where you can point to and say, okay, we, you know, we've got her ⁓ and this is how it benefited us. And I think that when I look at other, I guess maybe more commercial examples, because I think on the independent side, if we're going to look at more like independent creators or sort of boutique, ⁓ productions, I think you tend to see more of that as well, where it's something doesn't, it doesn't necessarily feel like a transaction, even though you have paid, like again, the two examples that I reference in acts of service, that case study, ⁓ there is an exchange, but it doesn't feel transactional. I did pay money to show up to these productions and there was participatory exchange. but it didn't feel transactional. And I think what gets really tricky, because again, Hermes has the resources and they can make these decisions. It's a privately held company. So what's in the middle on that spectrum? And I don't felt anyone, people need to make money. ⁓ There are so many experiential activations on the marketing side that I have loved. And I... Steve Usher (51:00) Hmm. Yeah. Laura (51:14) want those to continue to exist and to grow and to tour. So it's not that it's a problem if something is commercial necessarily, but I think that what you're describing is what you're asking about is how do the transactions feel? And maybe I'll give one example that I just went to. Netflix did, they had a a new show called Fear Street. And I think there's a longer title to it. ⁓ I think there might've been multiple Fear Streets, but a new one coming out and the activation was called Fear Street Prom Queen. And maybe that's actually the title of the show as well. And this was again, just in Los Angeles. It was over the weekend. ⁓ Runtime was about an hour. Steve Usher (52:05) Mm. Laura (52:08) and incredible performers. And so you're moving through this space. You're basically going to prom in 1988. And that's the premise. And so people are dressed up and there were all kinds of activities in the show. There were caricature drawings, photo booths. You could actually get your makeup done. So really delightful. And I had a wonderful moment with a performer where, we went through quote unquote the library. Steve Usher (52:24) you Laura (52:37) And there was a jump scare moment and it's a pretty quick ⁓ aspect of the experience. And as you exited, there was an iPad and the goal was to grab your email address. And then Netflix would send you a video of you moving through this library and getting scared. you know, it looks like surveillance video. so, but it was really the performer who stayed. She was just did an amazing job in world. First of all, the iPad is not appropriate for the time. So here's a trend, she's trying to get my email address, trying to get some data. Here's a transaction. Here's this device that is really out of world. And the way that she went about it and described, ⁓ she was a staff member at the school that we were having prom at. Steve Usher (53:14) Yeah. Laura (53:32) And she just did an incredible job where I was laughing so hard at all of the quips and she's interacting with the other participants who'd just gone through the Scare library. And the way that she navigated that conversation in that moment, not only did it ease the transactional elements, it made me want to give my, I just wanted to keep interacting with her. I did want the video. I wanted to see it. Steve Usher (54:00) Mm-hmm. Laura (54:00) And she was so charming and it kept the in-world aspect going where I'm still getting to play. I'm still getting to be immersed in that space. So of course I know that's a transaction. Of course I know that this iPad is, we're in 2025, we're not in 1988, but it didn't feel like a transaction. And I think that's so important. Steve Usher (54:26) So just out of interest, from the actual work as well, did you, and this is more from a design perspective, was there anything that kind of just popped or was like transcended industry? Were there any kind of like core foundational elements that really stood out that was, regardless whether it was an immersive or it was a final or anything in between, like you could say, ah, this is quite interesting, just to see if there's threads that you identified. Laura (54:50) Mm-hmm. I think sensorial aspects, I think that is so vital. We had a recent WXO campfire by Kevin Williams, who's an expert in location-based entertainment, and he was presenting on competitive socializing. And he used a fantastic phrase, which is, unachievable at home. So to kind of set aside the remote ⁓ virtual online category for a moment and just to focus on in-person. And he was talking about how essential it is in those situations to have well-designed tactile elements and I think that that is something I completely agree with. again, you know, what can you not do at home? What is unachievable at home? And you have to leave home in order to be able to experience that. And I think that it doesn't, again, it doesn't mean that everything has to include all senses that you go to a production and there's a taste element and there's a scent element. I do think that scent is underutilized. Steve Usher (55:58) Hmm. Okay. Laura (56:18) And that's why there is a sensorial ⁓ case study. I I also love puns. So would like to just lean into that wherever I can. But I think that we... ⁓ I think because our lives are lived digitally, we're just in these screens so much. I think it's not just about necessarily being in person, but about things being tactile, about things being incredibly sensorial and sensory driven. ⁓ Steve Usher (56:31) Yeah. Have you got an example of one that you went to that was like incredibly sensorial that really hit the mark? Laura (56:55) I mean, the entire Beyond Cognition case study is, these were, and the reason that I felt like that was worthy of, and I guess what I should say around the whole thematic question too is that that is, you see that in the case studies and in what I was trying to isolate around like there's a essential workers case study and that's about live performers. And I do think that live performers, they can be expensive. I think that's a line item that a lot of companies are looking to eliminate. It adds a lot of overhead or can, but I think live performers can be worth their weight in gold. There's a lot of, ⁓ when I had this conversation yesterday with this researcher and she referenced a going to, ⁓ Steve Usher (57:21) Yes. Hmm. Laura (57:50) production in London and went with someone. And the performer in that case, some people just aren't as excited to interact. They may sort of want to be a little bit more ⁓ in observation mode and that Steve Usher (58:05) Yep. Laura (58:06) we need to be able to recognize that and design for that as well. So it can be participatory, also people, this may be something that's new and making sure that there's more of a gradual on-ramp. In that case, it was unfortunate because It seemed like the performer either just didn't quite get off the training that they needed or misunderstood, miscalculated the situation. And so this person was reticent to interact and the performer kept returning to them to try to interact. And it may have been wonderful intentions of trying to like really draw them in. So we do, I think there's a lot of ethical considerations around live performers going both ways. I mean, we've had reports of Steve Usher (58:41) Mm. Laura (58:49) performers being groped and sleep no more. So there's a lot of careful ethical considerations, making sure that everyone is safe. ⁓ But I also think that performers just can be the absolute magic in a show. So I think the case studies give an indication of themes that I felt like were really important across the standout productions that I was seeing of the, because the report only covers Steve Usher (58:57) Hmm. Laura (59:18) the 200 experiences from 2024. It's not the full 500. It just would be too long and just yet, right. Well, we'll see. But so I think to go back to the sensorial aspect in the Beyond Cognition case study, I mean, it was such a respite for me to go to things. I mean, I love narrative. I love story and storytelling and again, live performers, but there are times when you don't want something that's so Steve Usher (59:23) Yet. Yet. Laura (59:47) linear, so literal or ⁓ specific in that way. You want something that is more abstract. And I went to a production, this was a gallery show, and it's by the artist Yonzi, who is probably best known as the lead singer of the band Sigur Ros, the Icelandic rock band. And he made this ⁓ installation, the show had three different installations, but Steve Usher (1:00:10) Mm. Laura (1:00:16) there was then a room that was the third installation. It was this completely contained experience. The show was called Vox and that particular installation was also called Vox. And I, when I, it's a really difficult experience to describe. I do my best in the report, but I mean, it was dimly lit. There was some light. There was ⁓ some kind of smoke fog effect. Steve Usher (1:00:34) You Laura (1:00:45) Actually, his family, if I remember correctly, has a perfumery and scent is incredibly important to his work. So there was a scent element to it. There was a platform, wooden platform in the middle of the room that you could actually, there weren't many other people around, you could lie down on it, it was big enough. And there were speakers inside of that. And so if you're getting all this vibrational feedback and then this incredible music along with it. So incredibly sensorial. Steve Usher (1:01:01) . Laura (1:01:15) And it's not just that it was incredibly sensorial. When I left, one of the things that I was absolutely struck by was that I felt incredible relief. And it wasn't that I felt relief for not being in the space anymore. It was, which would be fair. I mean, it was a very intense experience. felt elation when I was in the space. I actually felt rage at one point and I couldn't, I couldn't explain it to you. And I'm delighted that I couldn't explain it to you. Steve Usher (1:01:29) Hmm Hmm Laura (1:01:45) So when I went and left, felt relief, but it wasn't really from the art. It was relief from, I wasn't thinking, or it didn't feel like I was thinking in a ⁓ really specific kind of cognitive way. I felt like I just was being, and I just was absorbing and sort of, I it sounds really dramatic, but like communing with this art and. Steve Usher (1:02:03) Nice. Laura (1:02:13) That was extraordinary. And when do we get those Steve Usher (1:02:14) Yeah, nice. Laura (1:02:15) respites? Again, we're so dialed in. How many devices do we have and the cascade of content? I feel like I'm just like open your laptop and you're just being inundated with information and the range of how many choices do you have at the grocery store of cereal types of cereal? And you're like, this is just a wall of cereal. So I... Steve Usher (1:02:22) Hmm. Yeah. Laura (1:02:41) I do think that sensorial driven or sensory driven experiences, I mean, especially the ones that are more on the extreme end of that spectrum, Chromosonic is another company that's doing just incredible work there. So that has, and it overlaps with the wellness industry in a way that I think is really important. And ⁓ Steve Usher (1:03:05) Yeah. Laura (1:03:09) And we can see this. There is data. There is science around it. ⁓ But for me, think that it doesn't always have to be so extreme. ⁓ But I think really wanting to feel like an experience is sensorially driven in some way, it's vital. It's vital. Steve Usher (1:03:32) Yeah, love it. Love it. So let's create space for us to reflect for a moment. And I think thank you for sharing so much insight into the work that you've put into this. think it also places you in such a unique position as well. ⁓ So let me just ask, what's the, just to kind of, yeah, we kind of summarize and bring together, like just to give a sense for the audience. You've seen the landscape over the last few years of experiential and I would just like to ask, how would you summarize the future, I guess, in a way? Where do you see some of the directions ⁓ or lenses that you've kind of used? Either see one saying, hey, this actually could be growing more or hey, I've seen these beautiful nuggets where I think could actually continue to grow. I'd like to see maybe this. or anything in between, but just to give us a sense of that landscape and what do you see coming our way. Laura (1:04:38) I mean, it's difficult to, what I want to respond with is what I want to see, which I think is different from... Steve Usher (1:04:44) Go on, let's start there. Let's start there. Because this is your episode, so let's start there. Laura (1:04:50) So I think I went to an experience over the weekend and I think this is important to highlight and to... to discuss. I'm not going to say what it was, but I felt like it was not well designed. And I was frustrated. And I felt like I could see opportunities without making radical changes, without needing to have a completely different budget or a larger team, et cetera. I felt like I could immediately see changes that could be made to improve this. And I mean, this is why I go, I do feel like it's a little, and I know other people are like this too, there's kind of an interesting bifurcation that can happen where I always go wanting an experience to succeed. I always go wanting to be delighted and ready to play, ready to receive. And I think that there's that part of me that sort of stays open, I mean, the whole time. Steve Usher (1:05:41) you you Laura (1:05:54) then there's part of me that does have that critical eye and is evaluating. I try to kind of live in both spaces. Obviously you can't completely at the same time, but I'm aware. I'm aware that I'm clocking. This is why I do this. I'm aware that I'm clocking what's happening and evaluating, but I'm also so ready to engage or so ready again to receive. So that's the spirit in which I'm I'm attending these productions or participating in these productions. And I was frustrated because I wanted to see this be better. I felt like this can be better. And I was definitely a little grumpy about it as I was leaving. It was a difficult exit. It was in a very busy part of Los Angeles, a much more touristy part of Los Angeles on a Saturday night, lots of traffic. And so was kind of grumpy about some of the logistics. And I realized I was doing something that I say we shouldn't do. I was sort of deciding that this production didn't have enough value. And what I saw with, now I didn't talk with them afterwards, so it's difficult. You see things and you don't necessarily know, as we've said now a couple of times, you don't necessarily know how does someone feel or what's really happening internally. ⁓ But the rest of the small audience about Steve Usher (1:07:04) . Laura (1:07:17) 35 and they seemed engaged and they I wasn't the target market for this experience and Those people who I think were much more the target market. They seemed engaged they seemed happy to be there and I Think they had fun again. It's not like a canvas the audience afterwards, but I was I was making a decision that wasn't going to be of benefit really to anybody. It's fine that I didn't love the experience. ⁓ Would I like for them to hire me to consult on this experience to make it better? Absolutely. I'd love to see the experience improved. But I think that if there's a market for this, and what I will say was that this was in the ⁓ true crime genre, and we know true crime is a huge industry. Steve Usher (1:07:52) Okay. Mm. Laura (1:08:16) So I think there's absolutely a market for this and a market for this experience in particular. And it's not up to me to decide whether or not that particular format or medium or genre has value. It's up to audiences to make those decisions. So ultimately, what I would like to see is that we are crafting better experiences. Steve Usher (1:08:43) Yeah. Laura (1:08:44) And this was something that I've talked about quite a bit around the projection art shows, because I know there's a lot of people that didn't like them or industry colleagues who felt like, well, they just, there wasn't enough. ⁓ There wasn't enough to them. And I think, and I mentioned this in the conclusion of the report, I think there is, I think we all need to be very mindful of conflating personal taste with making sweeping decisions or generalizations around what do audiences want? ⁓ Because there were a lot of people that loved those projection art shows. Do I think that they could have been better? Sure. And I think the David Hockney version, which is the first collaboration with a live artist is an evolution of the form. And, there people that don't have access to a van Gogh in their local museum or can't travel or Steve Usher (1:09:19) Yes. Yes. Laura (1:09:39) don't necessarily feel something standing in front of a static painting. So I had to check myself with this experience over the weekend because I was feeling kind of frustrated. And I thought, just, needs to be better. It's not that that experience shouldn't exist. It needs to be better. And I'd like to, and I think there are so many people in the industry that just want to see better experiences. We want to help make experiences better and help those productions succeed. Steve Usher (1:10:06) Yeah. Laura (1:10:08) So that's what I'd like to see. am concerned, the flip side of that coin is that I am concerned that it is again about kind of chasing fads and making, ⁓ trying to minimize budgets. And ⁓ I don't know about that particular production that I'm using this example for. don't know if, ⁓ I don't know the details. I don't know the details of what their budget is and the team and their goals with all of this. But I could see how that could be so much better. And I think it's hard to kind of back to Pigalle and back to conversations around ethnographic research and, you know, serving audiences in a really meaningful way. think, and what we're doing right now, this kind of reflection, it's always again, onto the next, onto the next. And I think we don't take enough time. Steve Usher (1:10:50) Yes. Laura (1:11:05) whether it's internally after an experience or with our teams, if you're working at an agency, if you're working with a creative team, ⁓ I think that we don't take enough time to do those postmortems and to really reflect on, and then also to engage in the audience who came to this, what was meaningful to them. ⁓ So I'd like to see more of, I guess the two things are I'd like to see more Steve Usher (1:11:24) Yeah, yeah, yeah Laura (1:11:33) reflection and evaluation in these qualitative ways, in these long-term ways that again, I understand are challenging for a lot of reasons. And I'd like to see the drive to want to make the experiences better because that is how you create more sustainability in the long-term. I don't know. I hope we get there. I'll say that. Steve Usher (1:12:00) Yeah, beautiful. I don't know what your calendar must look like over the all these years going to experiences. But you know, that's a beautiful way human centricity iteration. Yeah, design. Speak in my language. And I think we just put the world to right as well at the same time. So Laura, look, thank you so much for joining. And thank you for sharing what an amazing journey. ⁓ We will absolutely of course put links to the report in the show notes. How can all the people who are curious to connect with you or ask further questions after this pod, what's the best way they can get in contact with you? Laura (1:12:40) Yeah, think, mean, LinkedIn is such an easy way, especially from an international perspective. ⁓ If you want to email me directly, it's laura at Rulo dot world and Rulo is R-E-U-L-E-A-U-X dot world. So laura at Rulo dot world and yeah, give me an email. mean, I'm really, you know, I can't be everywhere and there are loads of experiences that I'd love to get to. And for people who are in different markets and want to chat about what they're seeing, I'd love to have that conversation. Steve Usher (1:13:14) Superb, superb. Is it okay to put that? put that in the notes as well, so that all your contact details. But Laura, thank you so much. And yeah, thank you for your contribution to the experience designers. As someone who's explored so many experiences, a fitting fit to the podcast, so amazing. Pleasure, thank you. Laura (1:13:17) Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Steve. Such a delight.