Lieven van Linden - From body to mind - engineering human performance

[00:00:00] Shani: Hi, my name is Shani and welcome to the Experience Designers Podcast, where we explore the human experience, what it is, and how we might create better ones for ourselves and for others. Your last big milestone, did you celebrate it? [00:00:21] Lieven: How did it feel in your body? [00:00:24] Shani: And the last time you were really stressed, how did that feel? [00:00:31] Shani: Did you listen to it? Or did you push through? Between all the should do, stress, and external expectations, many of us are left completely disconnected from our body, treating ourselves like doormats to achieve career goals or to follow those supposed to life paths. In this episode, I talk to Lieven Van Linden. A self titled human performance engineer, he uses physical experiences and biometrical insights to help leaders reconnect with their body and their purpose to create performance, health, and wellbeing that lasts over time. Join us in exploring how we can move from our cognitive, rational mind and into our body. [00:01:20] Shani: What can our body tell us? What can we do to listen? And what do we stand to gain when we really tune in? [00:01:31] Lieven: Welcome. Thank you. Nice to be here. [00:01:36] Shani: It's great to have you. And we had a quick chat a while back before we, we booked this recording and, um, something that stayed with me was a little bit your, your story around having this fast corporate climb. [00:01:52] Shani: And I also went back, of course, to read how you tell your own story, and you kind of did a lot of things in your career really fast, only to feel disconnected, disengaged, and now, as you describe it, you work in the intersection of science and spirit. So I would just love, in your own words, to hear, who are you, and what do you do, and why? [00:02:18] Lieven: Okay, That's a good question to start with. Yeah. I'm, uh, I'm 38 years old, living in Belgium. Um, uh, got married, but also divorced. And that may be later, uh, you will understand why this is maybe, relevant for, for my story. But I actually graduated as an uh, straightforward choice, because my father was an engineer. My older brother was an engineer. So they told me, if you do not know what you want to do in life, just become an engineer and you still have many options open. So that's, that's what I did. And, and, um, the first, let's say 10 years, I worked with the same employer, and I always had this mindset given from me, from my, from my parents that, okay. [00:03:03] Lieven: To be successful in life, you have to work hard. Both my parents are independent, self employed. Um, so I always had the same kind of mindset and motivation. So I immediately jumped into the corporate career, and, and climbed my way gradually up, um, in the ladder quite, quite quickly. Um, But on every point in time, when I went into a next step, there was always the same kind of feeling that's okay. [00:03:29] Lieven: What's next? There was no like fulfillment in achieving something. Um, it was not only professionally, but also in my, my personal and my private life. I like to do sports. I like to do some quite extreme sports like running ultra marathons. Um, I played 20 years football, but then it was not exciting enough anymore. [00:03:50] Lieven: So I decided to quit. And then after one year of doing nothing, I just said to myself, okay, what's the crazy thing you can do? So I just entered this, this race. It's called the Marathon de Sable. It's an ultra marathon in the desert of Morocco. 240 kilometers. It's quite famous in the ultra runners world. [00:04:10] Lieven: Um, because you have to carry your own food, your backpack, your sleeping bag. You have to carry everything with you. Um. And so I just, one year I trained for this race out of nothing, not having any runner's experience. And I, yeah, I finished the race, which is already quite an achievement, but also I finished like I was 29th out of over a thousand participants, first Belgian. [00:04:33] Lieven: Um. But still I finished this race and I had like this feeling of, okay, yeah. What's next? There was no deep emotion, no deep connection with my, myself, with my body. I was still in this mindset of, okay, I checked it off the list and now I go on with my life. I also did another ultra race in, in the jungle of Brazil, also 260 kilometers through the jungle with all kinds of animals of this kind of survival race with my backpack. [00:05:03] Lieven: Also had quite a good result and still I kept going, kept going, kept going. Until there was this point in time where I got struck, let's say with my disaster, it's like, okay, there's a divorce. And you know, there are these moments in your life where big things happen, which really impact your life on, um, on many aspects. [00:05:25] Lieven: And this divorce obviously was, was one of them. And it's really, yeah, it took me out of the. and, and forced me to explore a little bit more my, my own body, because it, it seemed like all the knowledge which I had and, and all the, the thinking power that it could not help me at that point in time. And being an experienced driven person, it led me to, To go into this ayahuasca experience, which you maybe might know, it's, for those who do not know, it's this shamanic experience, um, which has its roots in, in Peru, where you go on this psychedelic trip and you unfold all these layers of your, your own self. [00:06:08] Lieven: Um, and it was during this experience that I also. Got introduced to the power of bread work because I did not have any experience with bread work. So this lady, it was a one on one session in the Netherlands because it's not allowed in Belgium to do this, but I got through this lady and she said, okay, we're just going to do some breeding before we start the ceremony and everything. [00:06:33] Lieven: And I went there, I let, I laid myself down and I went into this breathing cycle of 45 minutes to one hour. I don't know how much or how long it was. And it just, yeah, it blew me away, blew all my senses away. My, my experience of time and space was just gone. And I had this feeling of calmness, of wholeness that I never experienced before. [00:07:01] Lieven: And That was, let's say, my first encounter with something else besides always being cognitively present and working hard and climbing this corporate ladder. So, and that, and that, yeah, slowly made a switch in my life that I, instead of always going for Other cognitive courses, like doing an MBA, because I also then, well, I was still busy with my, my executive MBA. [00:07:32] Lieven: I also enrolled myself in this experience driven, , training. Uh, I became a Wim Hof method instructor, ice bath. the, all the, the whole cold exposure, uh, a lot with bread work. I dove in all different aspects of bread work. I even, I even became a firewalk instructor. So, uh, guiding people across, hot coal is also something which I, yeah, I'm instructed now to, and allowed to do so while before I was like. [00:08:02] Lieven: The complete rational cognitive corporate guy, I now swung to the whole different sides of being completely lost. And all, yeah, completely of the traditional pops, let's say that I used to walk and I went into all these experiences, which was also not, let's say the place to stay forever, doing all these experiences and dancing and singing around the campfire. [00:08:29] Lieven: It allowed me , to, yeah. connect with deeper parts of my own self, um, which I just, yeah, was not connected with before and where I lost connection somewhere during my childhood with all kind of deeper layers of trauma and beliefs. So yeah. And, and since then, I'm, I'm an entrepreneur. I started my own company built for endurance. [00:08:55] Lieven: We work with corporate clients mainly and entrepreneurs. And that's also where our services lean towards. We work with metrics and KPIs and we help leaders and managers to optimize their performance and their health from a. Yeah. From a, um, a data driven perspective, but still we always introduce the experience, the connection with themselves. [00:09:19] Lieven: And yeah, the intersection of those two worlds is where I see that a lot of magic, magic happens. So that's a little bit, yeah, my, my background story and, and how I also like to navigate myself. In this world, because I like to measure still myself, but I also like to, yeah, just dive deep into all kinds of experiences, which are not immediately explainable by Western science. [00:09:49] Shani: Wow, that's quite a journey. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and I feel like it's very symptomatic of a lot of what we see overall at work for people that we come into these spaces of work and we kind of disconnect from ourselves. We don't really listen to our bodies. We listen to our minds and we're very much driven from that place of, of understanding and rationalizing and making sense of everything. [00:10:18] Shani: But given then your, your experiences with yourself, but also the fact that you guide others in this to be more enduring, to last as people, not just like move through, but actually, be sustainable as humans somehow. What do you, what do you see that is then a more human way of being like, how, what is it that most people come to you and really need? [00:10:50] Lieven: Yeah, often, often they're like you mentioned, they're They're just overloaded with, with cognitive tasks, responsibilities, and yeah, they have just been rewarded their whole life by the, the cognitive tasks that they have been doing. So brain power is, is everything. But at a certain point in time, when you climb also the corporate ladder and you grow older, you notice that they are managing your time and trying to do more with the same kind of, let's say resources that there are limits to it. [00:11:24] Lieven: And, and often this limit is like your body telling you, okay, it's time to stop. It's time to slow down. It's time to look for something else. Yeah, often they, the traditional ways of looking at performance in, in corporate setting of how we are as humans are used to do it, they're not sufficient, anymore. [00:11:44] Lieven: So those people, they start to look for more bodily experiences or ways to, to regain the connection with, with their body and just. Yeah. Become present again and trying to shut out all all the noise. And and the symptoms of these are often stress and burnout and workload and not able to enjoy and be present. [00:12:09] Lieven: With the time the time that they have with their kids or with their spouse. So. Yeah, those are all signals of, okay, I have to do something, about it. And that's often when they start knocking on, on my door or our doors. [00:12:26] Shani: And then what do you lead them to? What is the, the improved state look like for them? [00:12:36] Lieven: We, we, of course, Try to give them the tools to be able to self manage and self regulate, their emotions, their, their mindset, their beliefs. Also, we help them to reconnect a little bit better with their purpose and their sense of being and who am I as a person? [00:12:54] Lieven: And those, those questions, they often pop up, because once you're in the rat race, you might forget, um, yeah, the reason for being and the reason why you're doing all the things that you're doing. So those are a couple of, of things we, we help them with. And often we help them or the first thing we help them often with is, is being able to manage their own physiology, their, um, their nervous system, being able to balance, their fight, flight with the rest and digest. [00:13:24] Lieven: So we're working a lot on the self regulation. Of the nervous system so that when they are stressed, they have tools to self regulate and to unwind. And we help them, yeah, in a measurable way, but we give them and we do with, with those people, a lot of, um, yeah, practices and, often bread work is, is the go to, modality, or the first modality where you try to help people to, to self regulate with. Hmm. [00:13:54] Shani: Amazing. I'd love to double click on breath because it's something that definitely comes up a lot, I think, and we, we all do it all the time, but we don't quite realize the power of breath. Why is breathing so important? Yeah. [00:14:10] Lieven: There are, there are many, many aspects to, to breathing. And that's also the reason why I, If you look at the whole scene of lifestyle improvement, uh, there's a lot about sleep and about food and about movement and breathing is one of the, let's say the, the modalities to dive into it. [00:14:28] Lieven: This is also because of breeding is such a broad spectrum. This is also the reason why I, let's say made my niche out of breathing as such, um, because I. was amazed from this first experience with a, with a sham, a shaman. Um, so because with breathing, you can go into the whole thing of trauma release and, and going digging into old patterns and releasing energy, which is, yeah. [00:14:57] Lieven: Hold up in your system, which you you just keep hanging on to But breathwork you can just use to self regulate and one of the most powerful things about breathing Is that it's one of the only I or let's say the only thing where you can take conscious control over Which can immediately regulate your nervous system. [00:15:19] Lieven: So when you're stressed When you're anxious, when you're in a meeting or with a client or with your boss and you feel stress and anxiety coming up with breathing, you can give the signal to your mind that you're safe, that it's okay. So it , immediately can take you out of this sympathetic stress response and can take you into a parasympathetic rest response. [00:15:41] Lieven: So it immediately influences your physiology and that's, yeah. You have nothing that you carry with you the whole day that has this power. So if you look just into the regulation of stress, breathing is the number one tool to, to go to, but Of course, you can tell this to a, to a CEO or a business leader and a manager. [00:16:03] Lieven: And they say, yeah, yeah, yeah. This fluffy thing of breathing. Nah, nah, it's not for me. It's for yoga people. And then that's why breathing is so powerful. We. often start without any explanation with a Wim Hof breathing and people who know a Wim Hof breathing. It's quite an intense breathing technique. [00:16:23] Lieven: It's kind of power breathing with breath holds in between and it's like a 30 minute cycle that you go through. And once we do this kind of breathing with participants, they have like this feeling of Oh my God, what happened? They all have, they have this kind of sensory experiences tingling in their hands. [00:16:46] Lieven: Uh, they felt like they were floating above the ground. So you make people experience something, it triggers some kind of curiosity and then you explain to them, yeah, it's, but it's not that. That's fluffy or vague because you can just measure it with a device and you can measure immediately the influence on your heart rate variability, which is an indicator for your nervous system. [00:17:10] Lieven: And it's like, Oh, my God, you can measure it and you can see it on the screen and you can, you can influence this graph and then you can combine the best of both worlds of knowledge. And, and there is this, this, this equation, which I just reread a couple of days ago in a book from Joe Dispenza, which says knowledge plus experience is wisdom. [00:17:32] Lieven: And, and combining these two, um, yeah, it's, it's so powerful to, to initiate change with people. Yeah. [00:17:40] Shani: Hmm. I can, I love that knowledge plus experience equals wisdom. That's really nice. And it, just listening to you, I find it's really ironic how a lot of us, and especially at work, but also in life, we kind of feel like the body is abstract and it's distant from us. [00:18:01] Shani: And as you say, it's fluffy to breathe, but it's. One of the most basic things that we do and we do it all the time and and it's such a like concrete tool and yet When we are in these spaces of work and performance we don't think that That's something that we should be holding on to. [00:18:25] Lieven: People are just not aware of it. And then when you start explaining the influence it can have on your sleep quality, um, how you can, use it to improve your, cardiovascular performance, if you want to do sports, either there, for everyone, there's something, uh, to find into, into breathwork. So that's, that's interesting. [00:18:46] Shani: I want to loop back to something. That you were saying and mentioning before as well, and You said something about there being time to slow down and listening to your body and I find that really interesting because Personally, I I've always been as when I was younger as well I was never into like maybe the physical sports, but I was always this overachiever So I could always like sit down and I'll work hard and I will totally ignore and I will forget that I need to eat and I will you know sacrifice my sleep and whatnot just to get stuff done and I find it really interesting because now I'm obviously working with what is more human and how do I be more in tune with myself in different ways? [00:19:29] Shani: And I find that balance sometimes really, really tricky because there's this place where discomfort is good. And you should explore it and lean into it and do it from one place. And then there's a place where , if you lean into your discomfort in that moment, you're going to exhaust yourself. [00:19:47] Shani: And I'm thinking about you who like you run ultra marathons, which is probably something I will never be able to do. But I'm thinking that must be massively uncomfortable and in moments and and hard. And yeah, I don't know. How do we understand that difference between when it's worth like pushing through our discomfort or like pushing a little bit more or actually listening because, and I'm asking this also from a personal point of view, because that's something I explore with myself all the time, is this Like getting into the discomfort and being explorative or is this pushing a little bit too hard? [00:20:28] Lieven: Yeah, yeah, it's a really, really good question. Not an easy one to answer. Um, because first of all, yeah, I will not recommend to anyone that they have to run an ultra marathon to, to get in touch with, to get in touch with their body or just for their health, for health reasons. So. Yeah. It's not a thing that you go on and do for, yeah, to become better at something or to have a better life because it consumes a lot of your time and energy. [00:20:55] Lieven: Um, and, and secondly, also, yeah, one of the reasons I think I was able to run these marathons and had such good results was that in that point of time. I was just completely ignoring all signals of my body. I was just pressing everything. Um, and I was just able to push through, push through, push through. [00:21:19] Lieven: And that was not healthy. Um, and I noticed now I, I did my last really big ultra marathon a couple of years ago. And it was 360 kilometers in the, the mountains of Switzerland. And after 120 kilometers, I just quit. I just gave up and it was my first race. It was really an emotional moment. Uh, really a heavy, emotional moment, which does not happen to me very often. [00:21:46] Lieven: And. Yeah, it was like this kind of awakening that my body was also telling to me, you don't need this to find purpose. And, and it was for me, yeah, these races were some kind of journey towards purpose or discovering myself or a way to find connection because I, I maybe I wanted to feel pain in some way to, to get connection with my body. [00:22:09] Lieven: It was not a healthy way to, to do it. Um, so. And your question, when to know to go to, to push through and when to stop. It's for me personally, it changed over time. 10 years ago it, for me, I was ignoring signals. I was just able to push through, push through. Now, since I became more in touch also with my body, I immediately feel it when I'm, I'm tired or when I'm, I've been pushing too hard and I'm better able to balance this cycle of performance and recovery, which is so important and still many people find it soft to say that you need your sleep and that you need some, um, disconnection moments throughout the day. [00:22:57] Lieven: But actually it's just part of being human. We have our natural rhythm. Uh, we're not designed to perform like machines, so it's just the way to, to live your life more into balance. And yeah, I now more consciously disconnect. I'm more consciously working on improving my recovery level because when I'm fully recovered, I'm able to perform better during the day. [00:23:24] Lieven: So I'm much more. learning to self manage this performance and recovery cycle of my own body. And it's a really, yeah. Journey, which is personal for everyone, depending where you are in your journey, in your state of consciousness, your awareness. Um, so yeah, it's, it's difficult to say you have to do it like this or this, and that's where, measuring also helps because we measure with the devices we use, we measure actually the working of our autonomic nervous system, which actually just tells you whether you're activated or whether your body is in recovery and these two states and learning how to balance them and optimize them. It's really a, um, yeah, a good way also to use data, uh, to, um, to optimize your, your cycles of performance and recovery. [00:24:16] Shani: I love that. I also feel like when I was listening to you, I thought a question that arose for me as you were kind of sharing your two states is also that we have to understand why we're doing things. It's not so much like, should I push through, or should I, it's like, why do I feel the need to run this marathon, or do these extra tasks, is it from this place of stress, or fear, or somewhere else, or is it from this place of curiosity, and... [00:24:47] Shani: Being excited about something because that also can then, of course, have an impact on our nervous system. And kind of guide us on to, or at least for me, that's a question that I ask myself a lot. Why am I doing this? Is it because I think I should be doing something? Is it because I feel, you know, there's a must here or I want to live up to something or I want to keep a promise or is it, ah, I'm actually really excited about this thing and it's fun and it feels good and meaningful, whether you know, you're searching for purpose. So on a very basic level, sometimes, and even if you don't have data, I guess that might also be a question or at least one that I sit with a lot. [00:25:27] Lieven: Yeah, and those are really good questions to ask because the last year, I was really pushing myself hard to start running again and to have these four or five runs per week. And looking for another race because I thought like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. And this is what I have been doing. And so why shouldn't I look for my next race? I didn't run a race yet. [00:25:52] Lieven: Somewhere in Lapland or Sweden or Finland in the snow. So I always had this on my bucket list. And so I was always telling myself, okay, this should be my next race. And then I noticed there was so much resistance, that I just could not start running or my body gave signals that it was in pain. So I started to get back pain. [00:26:15] Lieven: My legs started to hurt. So I was receiving the signals that it's just not the thing to do anymore. And then you start questioning, but why do I want to do it indeed? And is it because what are the external motivators which are still there to do it? And maybe it's because I'm always telling the story that I'm this Ultra Marathon running guy. And so I should keep running ultra marathons because that's what I do. And that's what I tell people. So, so then you start indeed trying to question yourself, why you're doing all this stuff. The more you become aware of it, the more you can let go of these expectations and, yeah, the less resistance that is. [00:26:54] Lieven: So, so. Yeah, finding the path of least resistance is not always a bad thing to do or, and sometimes you have to push, but yeah, push for something which is in line with your purpose. [00:27:07] Shani: I like that. And I feel like the path of least resistance is also, it doesn't, path of least resistance doesn't mean that there's no discomfort because there can be discomfort. [00:27:22] Shani: Um, pull, uh, and I think sometimes we also get stuck thinking that if there's no resistance, we're only happy about it and it's only fun and it's only comfortable. No, there are lots of things that are, both uncomfortable and super exciting. And that's a, that's a really. Good, good space to be as well, but I also like what you're saying and I think you mentioned it before as well and talking about the fact that we change over time, and with age and with experience and as life unrolls for us, and somehow, as always, as a lot of work is set up on these like very industrial paradigms, we're kind of supposed to be in this maintaining of always wanting and doing the exact same things. [00:28:13] Shani: And it's just not true. Um, you know, similar age to you. I've found myself in a few cycles also of looking for different ways of exercise of getting out into nature. And every time like now This isn't it. Yes, this is it. And then going in different directions and exploring different shapes for it. And as you say, it's sometimes super confusing, because you tied yourself up with this thing that this is something that I do. [00:28:41] Shani: And do I continue just because that's the story I tell myself or do I continue or the expectation that is outside that I should be doing, or do I do it because I want it? Yeah, that can have a huge impact as well, for sure. So I still would love to know a little bit around the metrics, because I know, even before we started talking, you showed me you have something that you measure. [00:29:07] Shani: So I'm, of course, really curious, because there are tons of devices out there for people who want to get curious about themselves, and start tuning into their body. What has been the most impactful for you? What do you usually guide people in measuring and tracking? [00:29:25] Lieven: Let's say the number one metric to use according to me and, and also a lot of according to science is heart rate variability. [00:29:34] Lieven: Uh, so, and the device which I'm wearing here, it's, it's from a Finnish company. It's called First Beat. So it's some kind of stress assessment, multi day stress assessment, and it measures your autonomic nervous system and whether your body is, in a stressful state where stress does not mean, you know, and not negatively. [00:29:53] Lieven: But often people think about stress. Oh, no, I should try to avoid stress. No, it's, it's completely normal that when you're activated, when you want to perform, when you're working on something, when you're excited, you, your body. It's in a stressful state or in an activated status. It's maybe a term I like more. [00:30:13] Lieven: And it also measures recovery. So hopefully during the night, your body is in recovery mode and you replenish and your memory gain and all this kind of processes which are activated during the night. So and with people, this is often the starting point to see. Yeah, during their normal daily life, when their body is stressed and when it's relaxed and heart rate variability is actually a metric which measures your autonomic nervous system. [00:30:42] Lieven: It's like, it's literally saying it's the variability between heartbeats. So, um, it's what, because your heart is not beating like a metronome. If your heart beat is 60, beats per, per minute, then it's not that there's exactly one second. between every heartbeat, then you would be dead. So there's a normal variability between the different beats of your heart. [00:31:06] Lieven: And that's what they call heart rate variability. And the higher the metric is, the more relaxed you are in a more relaxed state you are, and the lower it is in a more stressful state you are. And this is a really interesting metric to, to, yeah, to start measure and, and also to see. And with the device I'm wearing now, I also have to keep my agenda so I can immediately see during which type of activity I was stressed and also what helped me to become relaxed again. [00:31:37] Lieven: And, and it's not a cognitive thing. It's really on the physical level. So it's really objective. You cannot lie to yourself because often people think, yeah, when I'm, my, a good friend of mine, he was always thinking that he was, when he was cooking, he was also listening to a podcast and he thought, okay, this is relaxing for me. [00:31:56] Lieven: But it seems from a measurement that there was always a really big stress peak while he was doing these two things simultaneously and listening to a podcast and cooking. It was this multitasking thing, which is just not good, not good for him. So you, you really learn to understand your own physiology in a better way when you can link it to the activity and the behavior you, uh, you were doing, the things you were doing at that point in, at that point in time. [00:32:22] Lieven: And there have already been like over 50, 000 studies of heart rate variability and not only, it's, it's the best indicator for all cause mortality for cardiovascular risk, but it's also an indicator for willpower for emotional self regulation. There are studies which link the heart rate variability of entrepreneurs with their business results. [00:32:45] Lieven: It's a really. Unbelievable metric where there's so much when you think about the full scope of, of energy and physical, mental, emotional, spiritual energy, heart rate variability is the one metric to use. Let's say your North star metric to use when you want to optimize your, your health and your performance, your business performance variability. But there are a lot of different types of metrics. And I, I. I like to test all this kind of biohacking devices and glucose, continuous glucose, devices to measure your glucose levels. I try everything. But there are not a lot of things which stick into my daily routines. Um, and, and yeah, heart rate variability. [00:33:28] Lieven: Checking that is or following the trend of my heart rate variability is something which I Which I keep on doing. [00:33:35] Shani: You stick to that one. Yeah. I'm curious though, and also in particular because you work with, with other people who maybe are introduced to these measurements, because one thing that I see when I look around and of course, I don't wear any devices myself, but I know a lot of people who do, and Sometimes the sentiment is also that we're overwhelmed with data and we have all this data, but then we don't act on it. [00:34:03] Shani: Like we get all this information about ourselves or about the world and then we do nothing. And what do you see is the thing that gets people also over the threshold to actually... Not just read the data, but use it. [00:34:20] Lieven: It's trying to find a system also to, to, to do something with it. [00:34:24] Lieven: And that's not just, yeah, because if you wear this kind of smart watches, they show so many different things, uh, that it can indeed be overwhelmed. And in the end you don't do anything with all the information. So that's why I tried to bring the focus to Only heart rate variability and maybe one other metric, like counting the number of steps or following your sleep quality or your weight, depending on the specific goal. [00:34:51] Lieven: You have at that point in time. Um, so there are other metrics which you can track for a couple of months. If you want to lose weight or counting calories, whatever it is, but this heart rate variability is one metric that you can just stick to and which can really tell you a lot about the flexibility actually of your, your nervous system. [00:35:10] Lieven: So yeah, and actually at this point I'm writing a book on, on heart rate variability and it will be published next year and it will offer a system to optimize yourself, in a data driven and experience driven way. It's something I noticed a lot of people are struggling with, so yeah, finding a good system to change your habits. [00:35:29] Lieven: Yeah. I think there are so many books written about habit change, which is like a very difficult thing for people to do. So of course it all comes down to finding a good system, which you can integrate in your life to change, to change your habits. [00:35:45] Shani: Are there any nuggets of conclusions that you are giving away yet? Or are you keeping everything a surprise for when the book comes out? [00:35:54] Lieven: It's actually about, yeah, it's about the whole movement of the quantified self. It's about, why HRV is the metric to, to track if you want to optimize yourself. And I'm working out this, this kind of... Agile system, actually, which is also based on Sprint, which they used to work with in companies, because that's the difficulty often when you just look at at the corporate environment nowadays, a lot of companies are offering wellbeing programs and webinars and to improve your wellbeing, but it's often experienced as an on top of thing. [00:36:29] Lieven: And if you look at the amount of people actually using this kind of programs, it's a lot lower. Then the company's offering it. So I'm trying to find a way and I'm, that's why I, I'm designing this agile and sprint methodology system, which is yeah, integrated in the normal way of working of a person to also optimize, health and performance in a data driven way. [00:36:52] Lieven: So this system and this methodology, because I also worked for many years as a consultant doing lean optimizations in companies and agile optimization. So I'm combining a little bit. All the things which I came across in my own experience, and then try to write it down in that, in that book. [00:37:11] Shani: That sounds really interesting. [00:37:12] Lieven: And that's one of those projects where you mentioned it's, yeah, there's not a lot of resistance, but it takes a lot of energy. It's a lot of out of the comfort zone, meeting new people, reaching out for interviews, writing, rewriting. So. Yeah, instead of running ultra marathons, at the moment, I'm really fully focused on writing this book. [00:37:37] Shani: Amazing. That's a that's a beautiful pivot, though. It's also just and as in listening to yourself, your body, your mind, whatever is calling to you and your sense of purpose. That sounds really good. And I can relate. I think the first thing that popped into my head as you were saying, Agile system is I've been on my own journey to exploring these things as well. [00:38:00] Shani: And I think where I ended up a while back, I thought, what I need is some kind of menu, not so much a very, very set routine, because every day is different. And it's kind of the same. And there needs to be flexibility, there needs to be agility in how I can approach it from that point of view, as you're saying well, if sleep was bad, I might choose this in the morning. [00:38:27] Shani: But if sleep was good, I might choose something else. And then I have my different options. Yeah, Teresa Clark, who I interviewed for the podcast earlier this spring, she talks about your well being non negotiable. And that's kind of just the sense of here are some pillars like here are the things that I always try to give myself within the space of a day or within the space of a week or whatever is possible in our lives, it might be different things. [00:38:55] Shani: And I think that for me rings really well with these like more agile methodologies, which is more kind of principle based where you get to play a little bit. With these things are important, but they get to look different. They don't have to look always the same. I don't have to execute them at the same time at the same way every day, but I can use the principles to still shape my choices. [00:39:18] Shani: Shape my habits and without it being okay, either yes or no, I'm not running, or I am or, or I'm sitting still. No, but maybe you're not running, but you're walking up the stairs and you're doing, you're making these choices for yourself instead. Or, I don't know. That was what popped into my head is you said Agile. [00:39:35] Shani: I thought, yeah. It's this, for me it was like a menu. Thoughts, uh, [00:39:39] Lieven: Indeed. In, in the book, there will be a menu of tools also to, to use and to, to explore and, and to plug in. And also, additionally, if you look at the journey of health optimization, being healthy or health is not a destination, I always say it's a journey and it's difficult or almost impossible to give like an advice to one person, which you can just copy to another person. I think about food. They're all kind of theories and things for food about should I only, should I be vegan? No. Should I eat a lot of, meat, red meat? Uh, there are so many different diets and in the end it's just, you have to do what works for you. And, and that's, it's so difficult to give this one advice. [00:40:22] Lieven: Uh, to someone. So it's just about yet trying to find what works for you. And it's not something that goes overnight. So it's experimentation, adjusting. And that's why, yeah, this methodology and this, this way of thinking about it also. for agile really matched my experience of, yeah, you just have to find out what works for you. [00:40:43] Lieven: And if it doesn't work, just throw it out your calendar again. And it's not because everyone is starting to meditate that you also should start meditating. And so just find what works. And, that's why this methodology also, it's really interesting. I think. [00:40:57] Shani: I thought you were saying also around. You know, what, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. And I, for me, that also connects to the idea of being connected to your body because sometimes I can sit in meditation and it works really well. And there are periods where. I'm really scattered. But when I'm peeling potatoes, that's when I feel like I'm meditating. [00:41:21] Shani: That's when my body is going, now you're here, you're fully focused, you're super present, or went out for a walk or something. That's when my body is saying, now you're here, like now this is happening for you. So I'm also sometimes thinking like, for me, that's been part of this journey as well is actually listening to when my body is saying, I'm achieving these different things that I need if it is this absolute presence of not being distracted or other, you know, things that sometimes that it's not the meditation itself, it what what is the meditation trying to do for me is give me that groundedness and that presence in myself. [00:42:02] Shani: So I'm, I'm, I'm. when you're looking for what works for you, then that bodily connection becomes so important. Because otherwise, sometimes, as you're saying, if you're experimenting, and you're not listening, then you might just get stuck doing things that aren't working for you. [00:42:24] Lieven: Exactly. A tool is just a tool. It's indeed, it's a means to an end. So what state do you want to be if you want to relax? Yeah. Find something that can relax you, um, and can doing, can be just walking around the block, doing some breathing exercises or peeling potatoes. It can be anything. [00:42:46] Shani: I'm definitely in that exploration of what works to the point of. How do I plan my calendar? How do, where do I put space in for different things? just playing with even as you were saying, like, what is this time for recovery and time for thinking and replenishment? What does that look like in a day when you're 37 and you have two children that you need to drop off and pick up and cook for and all these things? [00:43:17] Shani: What does that even look like? Is it's not the same as when you're 25? And you can just go to work and you can have your own schedule, you can do a little bit more whatever you want. And it's not the same as it will be when I'm 50 either. And I have big children who take care of themselves most probably. [00:43:35] Shani: So yeah, I really that really resonated the agile piece for sure. And, and being like in in contact with ourselves. Very cool. But then I'm curious, of course, because then there are people listening to this, and they might be in different places of their own journey with this. And we talked a little bit about metrics. [00:43:58] Shani: Where do you, where can you start? And if you're in the space of wanting to connect more with yourself, wanting to explore more, maybe to sum up a little, like, what are some of the actions that a person can take for themselves? And maybe also, I think, you know, a lot of us are surrounded by other people. [00:44:27] Shani: So I would also maybe love your take on how can we support others in this journey? [00:44:34] Lieven: Where to start? Indeed, it's difficult to give one answer to it because indeed the starting point for everyone is different. Then the people I work a lot with and the people I meet, um, yeah, I, what, what worked for me personally and what I also noticed that works a lot for other people that I will put it like this is, yeah, the breathwork thing, then specifically the Wim Hof breathing, because it gives, yeah, this special sense of being connected with yourself and, uh, losing connection with space and time a little bit. [00:45:11] Lieven: So it's, it's a really concrete methodology, Wim Hof breathing or cold exposure for me is also always a good way. If you just want to be fully in the present, go and sit in an ice bath because there's no other, there's no thinking about tomorrow, not about what am I going to eat? It's just about, Oh my God, I hope I will not die. [00:45:31] Shani: I can testify to that. I do cold. as well. And it's, uh, it's intense. [00:45:36] Lieven: In the experience that I, that I always am looking for is often these bodily experiences, which, which where my mind is just overruled and, and this type of intense breath works, uh, like Wim Hof breathing, but you also have holotropic breathing, different kinds of breathing techniques and cold exposure. [00:45:56] Lieven: Those are for me, two ways, which really. Help me a lot. And also, our, let's say easy accessible for other people and often people have something like, okay, yeah, I want to try that. It doesn't sound too fluffy. And it's, it looks kind of cool to be in an ice bath. So the resistance to do it for many people is. [00:46:17] Lieven: I, besides, of course, that it's really, uh, it can be a challenge when you do it the first time. Um, so those two, let's say modalities really, really worked for me and also work for a lot of people as an entry point, um, And, but it can even also just be something about, yeah, go outside in a walk in the park, be outside in nature, try to disconnect from all your mobile devices, laptop, and just sit with yourself for a while against the tree. [00:46:46] Lieven: And it sounds maybe stupid, but these kinds of things can make you feel uncomfortable already. And just sitting with your own thoughts. Um, And it can also already help people to think a little bit deeper , into their body. Um, it doesn't need to be a really, uh, crazy, crazy experience immediately. [00:47:06] Lieven: It can be, it can be a small, small thing that you can do. [00:47:10] Shani: I really love that. And, and I actually did that in the beginning of summer here, I have a space where I walked to and I sat under a tree for like 15 minutes every morning. And every morning I would just look, I didn't have any music on or anything, I would just look at what was going on in nature, what flowers had come up, if, anything had changed. [00:47:34] Shani: Um, so indeed, it's as you say, it's get into our bodies. And a little bit out of the head, and be present. It's yeah, that's a lovely, that's a lovely place to start. [00:47:48] Lieven: And your second question was actually, uh, how to support others , who are on their journey. Um, It can be difficult, certainly when you're in a, let's say, a love relationship and to say to your partner or to see maybe your partner suffering and then telling to them, but do some bread work or do some salt exposure and it will help you and then you see that they won't to it. And then you become angry or you become frustrated about it because you want to help them. And because we have the, the human intent to help others when we see them suffer. Um, but yeah, as we mentioned already a couple of times, everyone is. In a different point or at a different point in their journey, so almost the only thing you can do is be present with all your love and support just by being consciously present and not having any expectations of what they should do or must do to change their states or or become happy again. [00:48:50] Lieven: And I think that's the best thing that you can do. Just being present with all your support without giving advice. And asked advices, too many times. And I think men are a little bit, yeah, they often go faster into, okay, I need to go into action modes or, uh, I need to help and do something about it. [00:49:13] Lieven: And, um, so yeah, just being present and, um, With all your love and support that's, and it also counts for your friends and, and I think for everyone around you, not only you're in a love relationship with your partner. [00:49:27] Shani: Hmm. I love that. I love that. I think there's a lot to be said for just not just for accepting the path that people are on and. [00:49:38] Shani: And holding their hand in that, and that said, as you say, and I think we all do that as people, we want to help, as you say, we want to go into the solution mode of why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? And I'm definitely guilty of that, too. I, there are a few questions that have popped onto my radar recently that I find really good and that I also use. [00:50:00] Shani: One is just very simply asking somebody, how can I support you? And listening. Thank you. Okay, I see that you're here. How can I support you? And not can I support you? Because then it's a yes or no question. But how can I support you? And the other is actually also this, like, asking people to distinguish between, is this a moment for venting? Or is this a moment for solving a problem? Yeah. Because as you say, like, especially when we care about people, we have this instinct to know, I really just want to solve it for you. And then sometimes this, you have to hold yourself back and just go, huh, okay, but you just want to vent. I'm just here to listen that sucks. [00:50:49] Shani: That's not fun. Or that's hard. Yeah, those are a couple of ones that I've that I've learned over the past years. And I think they're really useful. And I use them with myself as well. I hold myself back sometimes I go hmm. What's happening here? Is this a supports moment or is this a solution moment? Um, and then when you're also comfortable with people, you can actually ask them, yeah, which what, what is it? [00:51:16] Shani: Because it does happen that people are on this journey and they come to each other and go, what do you do? I'd love some help. I would love some inspiration. And then you can you can soundboard you can give them ideas can share your habits or what's worked for you and, and all that. It's fantastic. But yeah, from my point of view, there are two questions to add to your already beautiful answer of Yeah, [00:51:40] Lieven: How can I support you? Yeah, indeed, indeed. And, and Not taking it personal, then whatever reaction comes from the other person is also a good way to, uh, to deal with, uh, deal with the situation. Yeah, yeah, really good. [00:51:57] Shani: And I'm thinking as like a last piece to pull on this also, because we talked a lot very personally, but then again, most of us, as you come from a corporate space and in those spaces, it might sometimes be harder to even have these discussions or have these explorations. [00:52:18] Shani: What, what do you see in those environments for people? What, what helps them? [00:52:27] Lieven: Hmm, good, good question. Yeah, our entry point often, or always in the path of self exploration is, is health. And health is of course a personal topic, which... In some settings already, it's quite difficult to start a conversation about, about your sleep quality and your morning and your evening routines. [00:52:55] Lieven: Um, so how we do it and what we notice that really brings results is, yeah. We measure all, all these kind of people in a team and they all get their own personal report, and with green and red and, and it objectifies it a little bit, but it also starts the conversation. So people start to look at each other. [00:53:14] Lieven: Hey, your, your night, your sleep quality was really good. So what did you do before you went to sleep, and what are your routines? And yeah, just starting the conversation about the topic, which is not yet too personal or too sensitive. It often creates this psychological safety, which is needed and this foundation of trust, uh, to further build on and, and slowly and depending also in which stage of maturity that, that the team is, and is it a new team? Are they already working together for a long time? Uh, you notice that you can further build on it and yeah, conversations get deeper and get more personal and people start sharing, uh, a lot about their personal life without, yeah, being judged, or anything. So that, so that's how we do it. We, that's also a useful thing about the data. [00:54:06] Lieven: We. It's personal, but it's still, it's, yeah, it's, it's on the report, it's on the paper and, and it's not immediately felt as being something really personal. And it's a good conversation starter and people start talking about their struggles and, and, um, and then people share what works for them and then other people, they also get curious and they, they start to also implement some changes and, and that's, yeah, often how we notice that.That change is happening and that, that's, yeah, teams start to, share more and more about these topics with each other. [00:54:44] Shani: I think what struck me was this mix between it's personal, but it's not private. It just strikes up this curiosity where you can share what you feel comfortable with, but you don't have to share it all. [00:54:56] Shani: Then also what popped up for me was. no judgment. To the experience that I've had, that's something that people are afraid of being judged for their habits or their struggles or whatever it looks like. You don't want to be judged by anyone. Uh, for feeling stressed by a certain situation or, or not feeling stressed by a certain situation or, you know, whatever, whatever your, your own outcome is. [00:55:24] Lieven: Yeah. And, and almost immediately also there's this feeling of, Oh, I'm not alone. Other people are also struggling with, with their sleep or, uh, with their morning routines, with getting the kids on time to school and then, sitting behind your computer in back to back meetings. Sometimes we have the feeling and certainly since it's COVID and we're isolated and I'm the only one who is having these experiences, but then you share it openly in a group and you notice on, oh, my God, other people are going through the same kind of kind of struggle. [00:55:58] Lieven: So it also creates this bonding between people. [00:56:03] Shani: Sharing our humanness usually is, is a good thing. Uh, even or also when it's about our health and our well being for sure. I think that's a really good note to wrap up on. Uh, that's... you know, we're not alone. We're all, we're all, we're all on this journey. [00:56:25] Shani: And then we can choose how actively we're leaning in how much we're experimenting, how curious we are. And what data we're gathering about ourselves in different ways, whether it's, something with devices or just tapping into our bodies. Thank you so much for this conversation. I learned a ton as well and it was, really, really great having you here. [00:56:49] Lieven: It was my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. [00:56:52] Shani: Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Experienced Designers. I hope this episode brought you some new insight on how to get out of your mind and into your body a bit more and what benefits that can bring you in life and at work. If you want to support us and keep exploring together, please make sure you're following us. On your preferred platform, or even better, share this episode with someone who you think could benefit from it. And if you have any reflections, suggestions, or questions to share with us personally, the easiest way to find us is through LinkedIn. After all, better experiences are born from iterating together. [00:57:30] Shani: Thank you for listening.