Pigalle Tavakkoli - What if emotion is the real design tool?

[00:00:00] Steve: So, Pigalle, welcome to the experienced designers, Pigalle: Thank you, Steve. I'm delighted to be invited here. Steve: I'm so glad you've, , joined. Well, welcome to this space. Um, and you know, the name of the show and Pigalle is very synonymous and very connected. Um, Pigalle: They're slightly adjacent, Steve: just, just ever so Pigalle: just a little bit. Steve: and so look, I just wanted to ground for a second. Let's just take a, we've got a lot going on in our respective lives right now, and I zoom, zoom in together. So I just wanna just start, because I, I've, some of the research that we did, a lot of people tend to ask like, oh, what's your background? And, um, you know, what's, what's your journey to today? Which I think is super valid. Um, and I. I've found, having interviewed quite a few experienced designers, that there isn't one track to get to where there is today. There's such a mele [00:01:00] and such a varied, contrasting, different kind of backgrounds that really people come from. But I just wanted to anchor first because from your own background, just tell me a little bit about like the Pigalle like growing up and those kind of formative years for you. Because, 'cause I'm really curious to see what threads kind of, that foundation threads, uh, exist today. And just would love to kind of get to that kind of understanding from, from you as a Pigalle: Yeah. Nice. Nice question. And you framed it really nicely actually. Um, so when we have the beauty of looking back, things make more sense, but at the time we have no idea where it's all leading to. So if I do look back at, at my like. What set me on the track to experience design without knowing it was going to do that, I'd [00:02:00] actually mention my parents. So, um, both my parents were teachers, but very different styles of teaching. So my father was old, super old school, old fashioned. You learn by rote. The teacher is God. You listen to them, you don't ask questions, extremely strict. Steve: Yeah. Pigalle: my mother was the total opposite and she didn't have any teaching qualifications. And we lived in a part of London where there were a lot of, um, different communities and the local school, most of the children, English was their second language. There were Bengali communities, Pakistani communities, Indian communities, Chinese communities, and my mom loves kids. She had an idea to teach French, my mom's French, because those sorts of children wouldn't, [00:03:00] in that area, wouldn't have had access to learning French. So she approached the head mistress and offered to run a free. Lunchtime French Club. Now what ended up happening was the French Club became so popular, this lunchtime voluntary club, that they ended up making it part of the curriculum. And my mother used to get these amazing Christmas cards, hand drawn, written in French, all these messages. So, and every time we passed kids on the streets, they'd say to my mom and they'd say, like, speak to in French. And I was just totally amazed. I had no interest in teaching. I was busy working in theater, doing other things. So one day I said to my mom, you know, I would like to come to one of your lessons. I'm just so curious how you are getting all these kids to speak amazing French and they love you. And so I went to one of her lessons and. What she did was, she made it completely before we had the [00:04:00] language or the understanding, but she actually completely made it experiential and immersive. So she was, that particular lesson was about, um, teaching them fruit and vegetables. So she got a friend of mine who was an artist to paint a giant, um, board. Of bright colors of a, a market stand with fruits and veg. And she brought actual fruits and vegs. And she also borrowed some of my clothes and my shoes, which were very colorful for the kids. And she basically got them to come up to as if she was working in the market. And they would come up and ask for the apples, the oranges, the bananas, and she'd hand it to them and they'd have to say, I'm holding an apple, I'm holding a this. And then later on she got them to put on the clothes and the shoes and they'd all be laughing and they'd say, the shoes are too big for me. The dress is too this for me. And she also started the lesson and ended the lesson with song, A French song. It just blew my mind and I [00:05:00] like, I was like, wow, my dad is super, one end of the spectrum and my mom is just inventing this way of teaching, like completely, intuitively, and I still had no interest in teaching myself, but many, many, many years later, actually since 2012 when I started teaching, I really thought back to my mom and the way she did it, and I was like, that's my inspiration. And that's sort of the way that I've taught ever since. So big shout out to my mom because she might not necessarily realize the huge influence, and I've never been able to mention her on a podcast before, so I'm very happy to refer to her. Steve: lovely. And then do you know what we could unpack that so much? And I think we might refer back to this. I've got a feeling when we, when we dive into more and can I just ask as well from the education I, as you were sharing that story there, it kind of, you Okay. Obviously saying, looking back things make sense is then education [00:06:00] did come to you with the School of experience Pigalle: Yes. Steve: Um, just tell us a little bit more about that for those that aren't aware of the school and um, and how it was kind of birthed and how it's kind of evolved since then. Pigalle: Yeah. So, um, in 2012 I was, um, at Burning Man Festival in the middle of the desert, having a mind blowing, spirit enhancing, sensory overload moment. And then, um, when I got back to San Francisco, um, at that time, uh, after Burning Mann, I had an email waiting for me. I'll never forget it, and it was an email from a friend and a colleague of mine called Suzanne Buck, and the email was her from her inviting me if I would. Co-develop and co-teach a course called Experience Design at Central St. Martins. I didn't know what the course was. It was definitely the first course in the UK that wasn't about ux that was really about experience design. And so I hadn't taught before, but I was curious, interested. Um, I was still a producer at the time. I was busy in many productions. Um, but I said, yes, I'm a yes and sort of person. And then, um, through starting to develop and teach the course with her, because I had been producing already since 2005, and this was 2012. And what I was doing, I was developing all my methods and approaches intuitively based on my background in theater, a decade working in fashion. Um, so when I started to do the. Do the course and teach the course, I realized what I'm doing has a name and I'm doing something that has value. And I had this incredible journey where, because I just wasn't busy enough, being a full-time producer, I was also in the [00:08:00] evenings and weekends teaching. But the journey of teaching while I was producing gained me this moment to reflect back on what I was doing. I had to really think, what am I doing? Why does it work? And then how can I turn it into a simple as possible method that anyone from around the world, from any industry as they are when they come on the on our courses, that they can take these methods and apply it and have success with it. So I've had this amazing opportunity of 12 years to test, refine. Prove the effectiveness of my methods, which is what I now bring to teams and companies and brands. So yeah, and then my school. So I was teaching and I still continue to teach this course at Central Saint Martins and then the lockdown in 2020. So again, I'm a yes and person. I like to see challenges and opportunities, and I just thought I just had an aha moment and I was like, everything in my life has actually been, you know, if I think about my parents, I think about how I now teach since 2012. It just felt like, it just became really clear. I should start my own school focused on experience design where I can really nail down my process, my methods. The way that I want to bring it across. Um, the other benefit I've had is 15 years working with scientists. So I had also been able, in the journey of teaching for 12 years to find scientific research, which backed up my theories so that I could then have them underpinned with rigor. And so starting my own school of experience design and online school, it gave me an opportunity to really shape my modules, my courses, my content, [00:10:00] really specific to my process, my methods, the science behind it. So yeah, and, and, uh, it's been lift off ever since. Steve: Amazing. And could, could you just give us a flavor as well of like, what, what do you see in those different groups of people that come through the, the school or indeed St. Martin's as well. So just a, are there any that you would want that you. Obviously, you don't have to name, don't name, but are there any individuals that perhaps you've observed or, or seen lift up as part of that experience of, of learning about experience design and, and how? Yeah. Any light bulbs that you've seen switch on inside of people as part of that, um, that education. Pigalle: Yeah, it's been a really interesting trajectory and again, having the span of time since 2012. So in the beginning, the students at Central St. Martins were there by accident. They generally were signing up for ux. So with Suzanne, we'd usually say to them, put your [00:11:00] hands up if you think this course is about ux. And pretty much most of them would put their hands up and we'd say, okay, please don't leave yet. Give us a go for a few weeks, and then if you change your mind, you can leave. But what we're going to teach is not. About ux and then we'd take them on this journey and they'd all end up staying. And at the end when they did this, the, uh, survey, uh, reviews and for the university, they'd usually say, we're so glad we found this course by accident. And what's been wonderful is since 2012, we've seen the shift and change because people come from all over the world for the course. We very rarely actually have anyone from London. Um, it's usually, yeah, they come with their suitcase, they leave with their suitcase to go back to the airport. Um, and um, yeah, and, and we've really seen the change. Like the classes are fully booked now. People come absolutely for experience design in the way that you and I and our [00:12:00] community. Mean it. Um, and in terms of aha moments, I mean, it's very visible. I hear it. I see it on them during, because also with the, whether I do an online course, whether it's live where, whether it's a workshop or a sprint or training with brands, I do design an emotional. Learning journey for, and a storytelling journey for them. And so I can, I see different things happen at different stages along the way. Um, and yeah, and I've also set up a experience design set of modules for an MBA program at an academy in Paris. Um, and with that one, I've actually had students cry and I got a bit worried that I'd get a reputation as a teacher that makes students cry. Um, it was one course last year and two people cried at different points along the way. Um, and [00:13:00] both of them I went and spoke to individually. Explain that it was to do with something within them opening up and to do with their dreams, their aspirations, their potential, their creativity, opening up the path that of life for them that they had shut down for various physical and health reasons. Uh, I won't go into it 'cause it's private. Um, and it just really touched me in terms of the responsibility we have as producers, as educators, as facilitators, as human beings Steve: Mm. Pigalle: towards others and, and how everything we do resonates and has impact. And so, yeah, and it's amazing because of. The amount of time I've been teaching, I've also seen the journey people take. I like to keep in touch with cohorts when they go back to their parts of the world and I see them rise up, rise up, head up departments, start new [00:14:00] companies, start new experience design agencies. Um, yeah, and actually, uh, I, I, uh, last year got, I was awarded actually by a group, a consortium called Educators for Impact, for the Impact. I've helped develop over 12 years for the trajectory. People have gone on afterwards and, and many of them are part of the WXO community now, so I'm always singing its praises to them. This is a great community to join when you're ready to. Steve: it's there. Um, so can I just ask, so like with, with education and particularly like with design specifically, and we can go all the way back to service design, design thinking. Um, experience design. Um, we, we, we always like center on the human and designing from and with those [00:15:00] in mind, um, when, whether you're designing a product or a chair or whether you're designing an experience or anything in between. So I just really wanted to ground a little bit into like, what does it, what does it mean to design with like the audience or the participant or the customer or whatever we human we want to put in that, in that space, um, at the center. What does that mean to kind of unpack that? Pigalle: Yeah, it's a great question. Everyone will have, obviously, their own version and interpretation of that. Um, I find that quite often. When people refer to human centered design, they're not quite fully the whole way in the way that I mean it and approach it and train people with it. So, um, the way that I bring it about is going [00:16:00] to sound quite counterintuitive for most people. So they're usually a bit like, like this when I first start the journey with them. But it's basically about not designing with your own ideas. Pigalle: It's not designing what you like, what you're interested in, the latest technology that you have a passion to try out. It's also about not thinking about your user, your client, your customers, your audience in the way that you think they are, because. A lot of times there is a big gap between who the client organization brand thinks that audience is and who they actually are. And I find once I'm doing audience research, or if I train them to do audience research. They have a big shock [00:17:00] and they realize that there is this gap. And then I help them how to bridge that gap and, and connect with what's really going on with the consumer, the audience. And it's also about not just what's going on on the outside of their lives, but it's in experience design. The outside is just the context to lead us, to understand what's going on inside them, on their deeper inner motivations. And those are the golden nuggets that we design for. But you can't find those go golden nuggets unless, um, I like to say you have to be a curious detective. You have to clear your mind as if you know nothing about your target audience. And then you go with your magnifying lens on a hunt through active listening observations, talking ethnographic research, psychographic research. You go way far beyond demographics to really dig, dig, dig deep down. And then you find [00:18:00] those golden nuggets. And then those inner motivations that you uncover, they form the framework from which you then design. You don't have to think of any ideas. Um, it, the hardest thing for us is to keep scrubbing our ideas out. Um, I would write them down and put them in a drawer and forbid myself to do them. And it also because then the audience is leading us, it naturally comes through. What's the right thing? What's going to be effective, what's going to connect with them, with their hearts and minds? It's not a guesswork anymore. And it takes the emotion and pain out of ideation, group ideation, collaboration. It makes decision making very clear. You have this strategic framework exactly about what the audience is like that directs you. And then at the end you, your effectiveness is, you know, got an extremely high [00:19:00] success rate because it's not guesswork anymore and you're not misaligned with what's really going to have impact on them. And when you approach design from that perspective, it radically changes what you end up designing. And when I'm working with clients and brands, I like to, I like to get them to provide a previous case study and we go through. My process with them and the methods so they see the difference. It all makes tangibly to the the design at the end. And they have loads of aha moments and then they're like, ah, this will have got us Steve: Yep. Pigalle: where we wanted to be even more. And they're really excited to then try it with obviously the upcoming project as well. Steve: So let's, let's, let's stretch some, some of that element as well. Let's do that together now. So, um, this is, [00:20:00] this is really such an interesting share because I, I, I share it back with you, it resonates, um. Within ourselves. We, we, we have to just, we have to contain ourselves. And we, I think that's one of the biggest challenges I certainly had earlier, earlier in my career, was just, and, and certainly observationally when working with people, we always tend to jump into that solution mode so, so quickly. And often the demands on, in the construct of an organizational context is the demand is to move quick, fix things, find the solution, move forward next thing. Exactly. And, and in my last, in my last podcast with Stefan Maritz, we talked about, he talked about a lot around AI and, uh, shaping future experiences and. There's something I wanna riff 'cause I wanna bring that element, that episode into this conversation. 'cause I, and also some of the experience economy language that we use is, [00:21:00] I think we're at this precipice of this really super interesting moment where AI is gonna be about time well saved, right? It's gonna accelerate so much of that. And so the, the positive side of me, the, the optimist, the blind optimist tends to be, uh, is, is saying that's amazing because surely then there is opportunities in there for us to actually go back to the drawing board and redesign the things from the bottom up of the things that we want to shape. The experiences we want to create and, and craft for ourselves, but that's gonna require us to go back to listening, empathy, understanding, observational, psychographic, demo, all of those elements, great things that you shared. So just like, can we just riff off that for a moment to kind of go like, because this, this, this process, this mindset, this, uh, methodology, it is extremely powerful in these times where I do believe there are opportunities to shape profound experiences [00:22:00] and impactful experiences in a world where there's quite a lot of, quite a lot of disruption right now. What, what's your thoughts on that? What does that kind of praise for you? Pigalle: Yeah, there's lots of tangents directions that, um, I could pull on. Um, so I'll, I'll start with your final point, which is, um, where I like, I mean, I, I mentioned that we're in a crisis of connection, um, uh, and technology and the rapid rates that things are happening are all. Unfortunately adding to this sense of isolation and disconnection. And to another point you mentioned you used the word shaping and we are on a tipping point of whether we will use technology as our tools that shape to benefit us, or whether a technology will shape will be the ones shaping us. So we are on that tipping point and, and then each of us individually. You know, we'll need to make that decision. And so things like AI and any types of technology are tools, and I've always worked in the life sphere, but incorporated digital, but all, uh, and technology, but always done it seamlessly as part of the storytelling, as part of the journey. I didn't want the audience to necessarily even notice that it's there or the effect of it, or their interactions with it. Um, it was just a seamless blend of the whole experience they're having. Um, and things like AI are hugely beneficial for us for data analytics and for crunching, obviously vast data rapidly at the blink of an eye, literally, um, enjoying our key insights and things like that. [00:24:00] However, it's reliant on the data type, the quality of the data that we input it with, and the quality of what we're asking it to. Respond to and provide to us. And so a thi something that I have noticed over the 12 years of teaching is the more in we've had the increase of technology in our lives and the more comfort, ease, and speed that it has provided us, the less ability people have been having to start thinking for themselves and to problem solve, be creative and innovate. And I've realized that that sort of thinking is like a muscle. And that muscle over time is getting less and less used and sacrificed for speed. And I've thought about this quite a lot over the [00:25:00] years and all the exercises I used to do in, in the early years. More and more I have to scaffold them because more and more I have to help people to take the beginning steps of how to think creatively, how to develop ideas, and even in agencies, creative agencies, and I mean, people just don't, are losing the ability, the intuitive way of working that way. And my work is often bringing that back in to help them to do that. So I feel the process. Of creative thinking and asking the right questions when your research in your audience is critical because we can drown in data. We either have too little information and therefore we fill the gaps with our assumptions as assumptions, biases, and stereotypes. Or we're drowning in data. We dunno what's useful, we dunno how to get [00:26:00] insights. And even if we have the insights, how do we activate them? How do we build on them? So I help to bridge that with, with people and sort of get them back down to how, you know, what does res research and audience mean? What are all the different methods, not just. Demographic and data driven, but the, the more qualitative, the more engagement, the ones that are a bit harder to get. But once you know the methods, then they're there. You can do it. And it's just mind blowing when people do it well, their minds are blown. My minds are blown 'cause they're so excited with what they've discovered. Um, and then we, I take them through the process of then, hey, how do you draw out those insights? Yes, AI can draw out the insights for you, but how will you understand what they are and how will you know what to do with them? And how will you be able to judge that they're the right quality insight? 'cause you will get a lot of insights and you need to know how to navigate [00:27:00] to pull out the right ones to go and form the right design direction. Um, so there's so. The speed that it develops the answers for us means we're not understanding that process anymore. And that is the, that process is when innovation takes place, it's when the unexpected connections happen. And it's when we go down different routes or something takes place and we're sacrificing that. And I wonder in the future, because also with AI and chat GBT, it gives us the perfect answer, right? Or it gives us the best answer. And creativity isn't about the end answer. 'cause once we've got to the end answer, that's it. That's the solution. But that's not how ideas come about. They come about from the not knowing the answer and [00:28:00] having a strategic way that you do that ideation and creative phase. Where ideas, then you facilitate ideas to emerge, but they're based on the solid foundation of the research. Steve: Exactly. Pigalle: Um, so yeah, so I see a lot of this effect going on and I feel like at the moment, the, the tools are leading us rather than, as if I go back to what you said, it's rather than us shaping the tools around benefiting us. So it's there to be done. It's, it's not, you know, a, a negative thing. It's just what, which position we are in relation to it and whether we're going to manage to, to go around and be the masters of it as opposed to it mastering us. Steve: Yeah. And, and the, and not to sound pessimistic, but I, history tells us that we haven't been the most [00:29:00] human-centric species emberly in terms of, in, in an organizational context. Uh, but certainly I would say there's a lot of what you've just shared. There's really got me really thinking and reflecting there. Cause I, ' cause I couldn't, I, I felt it as you were sharing it, I was like, yeah, this is so true. When you are, when you are, when you are in that discovery phase, in that sense making mode, it's actually sometimes hard to describe. Like, you know, you can look at data, you can look at quant and you can look at quality, even some qualitative stuff. But when you're going through it, it's the, it's that, it's the feeling, it's the threads, it's the stuff you just kind of, it's quite hard to describe it in many respects, but it's. You can't just get it from chucking it in chat, GPT and then it giving you a bunch of insights that, that, if you're taking that as your direction, um, and thinking that's a shortcut to get to this kind of point quicker than you are, I think on a number of levels, on a human level, you are diminishing that muscle in [00:30:00] your, in your brain for that creative process as you've highlighted. Um, and also you are cutting corners to the point where you're not connecting with that process and actually reducing the opportunity of building something that is gonna resonate and connect significantly. Pigalle: Yeah, I, I mean, it, it's, so, the thing as well is speed and, um, perfect perfection isn't human. So the great thing with experience design is we love humans and we love the complex, messy, unpredictable nature of humans. And as a producer. You know, they would never behave as my lovely spreadsheets or, or my perfectly designed emotional journey or my production plan or, and, and that's the magic. That's when the brilliant stuff [00:31:00] happens. When they, and, and that's why I always talk about my role as a producer wasn't one way. It wasn't me creating an experience for them. It was two way dialogue. So once the audience enter into the experience live digital online in IRL, um, they are then talking to me. If I'm willing to listen and watch and observe and every production, whichever the platform, I'm continuously learning from them because they don't behave in the way that I might predict. And therefore, I learn more about human nature and I learn more about how to design for those inner motivations and sparking emotions and forming memories and creating long-term impact. But I learn that on the ground from [00:32:00] people and that's what makes, you know, I like to say be, you know, being human beings is what makes being human so wonderful. Steve: I'm gonna steal that one. If I might, I might put that that's going in the reels for sure. Um, can I also just bring another layer into this, into this cake because you know what makes us inherently human, uh, our emotions. Um, and of course I'm really curious because I know you've done a lot of work in with emotions. That word and what sits behind is a whole, um, world. And I think just, I just also want to honor as well, something, 'cause when I was kind of preparing for this, I think the words we use to describe emotions generally are vocabulary around, I always struggle to say that word vocabulary by the way, [00:33:00] uh, is a, as humans we tend to struggle. We're very narrow with our language. We're happy, sad, anything in between. But, and I think Bne Brown's Atlas of the Heart was a really interesting piece of research where I think it was like 2000 or 3000 people were surveyed and they asked. What words, I think emotions, words would you use? And, and I think there was like five out of 2000 people, and it was a shocking moment where it was like, oh my God, a whole language of emotions was, is so narrow and diminished. So I'm really curious, like when you, when we're thinking human led or audience led and emotional first, how are we thinking about those two elements when we bring that into this kind of conversation and this word, emotion, uh, and the words we use? Mm-hmm. Pigalle: as ex, um, I just, 'cause I have several thoughts. I'm trying to string them logically step by step. [00:34:00] I'm, I, I like to be very logical. Um, so I learn that. We need to design to spark and shift change people's emotions first if we want to change thoughts and then behavior. And I created my emotion change equation based on that. And it's based on the practice and witnessing tens of thousands of people over 15 years and them teaching me that this is the way round that's most effective for impact and transformation. And in behavioral, uh, science, behavioral, or maybe I should say more accurately, behavioral economics, the think, feel, do model is the one that most people will quote and you'll. Read it, you'll hear it. And I actually say, well, it'd be very interesting if any of those, any of those science researchers [00:35:00] had actually designed and produced an experience because it's not really that way round in practice, in real life. And so my emotion change equation is about changing emotions first and then the way people think, and then the way people behave. And so because emotions are so critical, I also share the science behind it, like brain anatomy, where emotions sit their relationships to memories. How where 95% or more driven by our unconscious in our decision making emotion and emotions are a major part of our unconscious drivers of our unconscious thinking, which obviously then leads to our actions and behavior. So since. We're mainly driven by our unconscious and, uh, highly emotional species. Then what we discover is actually there are a lot of emotions that we have, and I like to compare emotions for us as experienced designers, like a paint palette. [00:36:00] And we want, and like why limit ourselves to the primary colors, like happy, happier, even more happy. In fact, I ban the word happy to design for happiness. Um, in fact, why don't we use all the colors, the shades, the tones to create a whole nuanced, emotionally rich journey? And in terms of neuroscience. Research, some, uh, researchers demonstrated that there are two factors to increase memorability. So the first factor is the intensity of emotions. The more intensity of emotions you experience, the more, uh, memory will form. And then the range of emotions you include will also then increase the longevity of that memory. And so most people, when they're designing experiences, especially I say we're living in the cult of happy and frictionless, um, experiences. And I say, I [00:37:00] recommend, let's design for all the other emotions in between for friction, full experiences that are very memorable. Because after all, who remembers, a completely comfortable ends up becoming bland, instantly unforgettable experience. And, and the skill of us is. How do we balance it in the right way? We put in the good pain points and we manage that well, rather than bad pain points that send them off with the wrong sorts of memories. I mean, that's our skill, right? And that's what we're learn, what we learn and what we develop. And, um, so yeah, so I like to say let's paint with all the colors of emotions. And in terms of emotion studies, um, there have been, uh, really wonderful emotion wheels developed with a whole range, like very nuanced, complex range of emotions, which I also teach. Um, and there are many books. So I also, there are [00:38:00] lists of like 2000 emotions and, um, yeah, so I'm a big fan of collecting emotion words. Um, I should me mention Tiffany Watt Smith's amazing, uh, book of emotions and it's an a z of emotions both past, present and other cultures. So there's so many emotion words. Yeah. So there's so many emotion words that we don't use anymore, but they, does that mean the emotion doesn't exist? Steve: Yep. Yeah. And what did you, how did you get to the emotion change equation? What does that, Pigalle: Yeah, well, yeah. So it's basically, well, so I've made it basic. I've made it super simple. It took me 12 years to hone it right down into, into this method. So, um, again, I, I do things quite back to front, reverse engineer things. Mainly driven from what I learned from [00:39:00] people and the way they do react, behave, and change. So, um. We're often asked to change behavior and um, behavior is really, it's actually the hardest thing to change and to change behavior for the long term. We can't really affect that for someone else because if we're going to change our behavior for the long term, all of us individually have to be the doers of that change, and none of us really want to change and do it. Steve: Yeah. Pigalle: that's actually incredibly hard to do. So rather than starting to try and change behavior and designing everything and putting all the effort into it, I say counterintuitively, don't try and change behavior. Just leave it alone. Instead, go a few steps back and put all your efforts first into how will you change people's emotions and the beginning of the interactions with [00:40:00] the experience, and once you've effectively changed their emotions. Their mind opens up physiologically. They open up all sorts of chemicals going around the body. The sympathetic nervous system is relaxed. You go into what's known as an open creative mind state. Then you can introduce things to start shifting thoughts and perspectives because they won't be, they'll be resistant to that beforehand. Steve: yeah. Pigalle: And if you effectively change emotions and then thoughts, so that plus that equals a natural outcome, which is changes in behavior that will naturally come. Steve: Hmm. Pigalle: The length of time you want. That behavior change to last will depend on the quality and depth of emotions and thoughts you changed. And we know this, I mean, it makes sense when I explain it because we think of things we've been to and if we only [00:41:00] moved a little bit and we only had a few new ideas, but not really do we remember it much. Steve: No, Pigalle: Whereas if it's something else that really emotionally charged us and really our thoughts, were going in lots of directions. So it, you know, when I talk it through, it feels very logical and, and I really only developed it based on learning from people. Steve: What can we, what can we ask the audience to do? Anyone listening right now is maybe, is there like a prompt we can invite them to just reflect on. As we sit here now. And just be like, just think of an experience or a memory or an emotional moment where, where that, where, where that has been a, a trigger for change for them where there has been a profound impact on the way then they thought, not from that place of, um, thinking, but more from that [00:42:00] place of emotion and having that very emotionally impactful moment. Um, Pigalle: Yeah, I think, um, what people can reflect on, I mean, I do a, an, an exercise, actually a reflection exercise on people's memories and stuff. Um, the key thing is when they think back, when our wonderful listeners, thank you for being with us today, Steve: listening. Pigalle: when our wonderful listeners think back to a life-changing experience, and they don't have to limit it to just. Something that was really positive. They can also expand it to things that were challenging. Steve: Mm. Pigalle: If they reflect on that and the sorts of emotions they had during that time, the kinds of thoughts it brought about for them, and then later, long time later after that, the sorts of changes it brought about in their life, [00:43:00] particularly if it was challenging, it usually requires quite a bit of time to come out the other side. Steve: Yeah. Pigalle: It then hopefully, will help our listeners understand that there is a huge benefit to designing an emotional journey that has different shades and tones, and we don't need to just design above the line happy, joyful ones, having contrast and having certain areas where we. Learn more about ourselves. We overcome certain challenges, the sense of achievement. We get the new learnings, we have the potential we tap into within ourselves, how that will actually allow the experience to become more memorable, have longer lasting results spread. Word of mouth, people saying, oh my God, you've gotta go to this thing, or try this thing or buy this thing. So just, I would really welcome people to, through their own experiences and [00:44:00] memories, embrace the full paint pellet of emotions and experiment and design with it. Steve: yeah. And embed them at certain times in that journey and that experience to take people, to shift them through those different emotional moments for sure. Embed them. Um, I. Can I also just ask as well, I just wanted to kind of just for, just for those that perhaps might be slightly more, um, early in their career or maybe don't even do experience design. They're here because they're curious about experiences and they want to apply it into their own context or learn more about what's going on in this field. Um, can we just give, there's quite a lot of, uh, you know, where London Experience Week's coming up, um, profound week in the calendar and, you know, there's a lot of experiences. I mean, it just highlights the, you know, when these kind of festivals and these things take place, you kind of go, oh my God, there's so much going on. And for anybody out there, you can entertain in ABBA Voyager, which is [00:45:00] an amazing experience, nostalgia, um, unbelievable use of technology for an example, um, to KA and obviously immersive experience. So there's all of these like really amazing high-end production. Then there's a kind of all, obviously all the way down, I don't use the word down, but then there's a different scales of experiences that people can engage in. Um, any, like, how can we give people like, a bit of a sense just to bring what we've kind of discussed today with like audience-centric emotion experience, design, all of these elements to maybe give someone like a really good example of a business, a company, or an experience that has delivered or is delivering something that is bringing all of these nuances and elements together. Well Pigalle: So I think it's an opportune moment to define what an experience is, Steve: Go for it. Pigalle: With London Experience Week taking place because there is a [00:46:00] possibility that people get slightly, uh, blindsighted by all the productions and think those are the experiences. Steve: Yep. Pigalle: the way that I define more an event or a product or a service or a space is versus an experience and versus transformation. So, um, technology events, these productions. Products, services, they're all things, physical things that take place outside of us Steve: Yes. Pigalle: and I call, I put them under an umbrella and I call them an event. And we go to and interact with lots of events in our lives. Steve: Mm-hmm. Pigalle: Now, there is a moment if those productive event spaces services have been designed well, then there's a special moment where in during our interactions, they [00:47:00] go from being what's taking place on the outside to going inside us and they have a reaction and a change in our emotions and thoughts. That internal change is how I define an experience. Steve: Individual. Pigalle: Therefore, as experienced designers, we're not actually focused on designing the form and function and service of the exterior objects or spaces. They are our tools in order to design for this internal experience to take place. So actually in London Experience Week, I'd be willing to place a bet, and I'm not a betting person 'cause I always lose. But in this instance, I would be willing to place a bet, a fun bet, um, with Monopoly money, um, that the [00:48:00] most impactful experiences that are going to take place for people taking part will not be. The productions themselves, but it's the internal reactions that lead to connections with the people next to them, or connections with themselves or thoughts or emotions tho they, those will be the memories that they'll have for years to come. It won't be, I saw this that happened with that, with this VR headset. No one goes home talking about a VR headset, right? But it will be what was personally a chain reaction that was set off within them. The moment they have that, that's an experience by my definition. And then transformation is what takes place after the interaction and the experience, and it's what resonates and continues in their lives afterwards that hopefully they then start to integrate and apply into their daily lives. It can be small [00:49:00] transformation, it can be long transformation, but it's. By my definition again, ' cause lots of people have different definitions, but it's what takes place later and has that lasting influence. Steve: hmm. You know, and, uh, if I may, I'm gonna share just something this, uh, a personal story of my own re of something that happened to me recently. 'cause I think when we talk now into more transformational experiences, um, I actually had the opportunity, I went to Switzerland and I did the, uh, Joe Dispenza retreat in Basel. I, I went there with a complete open mind and I was there with 8,000 other people. So you kind of go into this really big event. And I have to say, the staging was very good. The organization was very good, and you appreciate the. The, the ease of getting in and out and getting a seat and grounding. But the experiential element for me was where the emotion kicked in. [00:50:00] It was during a meditation, and then something happened internal inside of me that was so profound. I can't actually describe it to you. Pigalle: Hmm. Steve: That has set me on a course of transformation since then, and I've continued that. Like it, it shaped it, it changed me almost instantly to the point where I'm now continuing this work thereafter, and I'm dedicating a proportion of my life to continue in this work. And it's fascinating. And when I heard, uh, yourself and Heather, uh, recently on a discussion, Heather Gallagher. Um, I was, when you were talking about transformational experiences, it was so fresh after that and I was like, oh my God, this is exactly what I've just been on, on this journey. It's quite mad. And so, you know, just bringing some of those threads that you shared about internal first emotion. It started, it did, it started here in, in my Heart, [00:51:00] this is where it started and then it kind of went out from there. So. Amazing. I think that's, uh, I just wanna share that 'cause it's, uh, definitely the power of experiences and what they can do for people. Pigalle: Thank you for sharing that beautiful story and amazing how it's continued to really shape who you are. So I also like to say that with transformation, it can either be small transf, small transformation, that's like an evolution that needs to happen again and again and again to eventually grow. Or it can be that bolt of lightning, instant moment revolution, big transformation where things crack apart and just won't be the same again. And parts of ourselves we leave behind 'cause they no longer serve us and new parts of ourselves are born and, and our life really is a cycle of that. I mean, I see life if we get a bit philosophical about it all. But uh, since I have thought long, [00:52:00] very long time about what is an experience fundamentally, and I feel like life itself is an experience and. As an experience, it provides us with opportunities, but whether we see them as opportunities or not is down to us. And they come wrapped up in good times and in challenging times. And our tendency is to not want to embrace the challenging stuff or to get over it and put it behind us. Um, and however I've started to learn that the more we can embrace equally the same amount of passion, the good times and the tough time, and that's actually from Buddhism, so I can't claim that as my own. There's great people that I've thought about this already, but if we can equally embrace the challenging things, that's often where our greatest learnings come. Our [00:53:00] greatest transformation comes and life gives us a series. Of these, and it's down to us if we choose to break through parts of ourselves. It's like this continuous rebirth process of evolving and shedding and shedding, and I see it as a journey of life, funnily enough. To get back to the core of who we were when we were born. Because when we were born, we were untainted, we were pure, we were really who we are individually. And then the layers, you know, of all the different layers that come along. And then when we're older, we then start the process of trying to reverse back to who we are, back to that wonderful core of our humanness and humanity. And, um, and, and in the [00:54:00] end, actually, the more I realize that we are interconnected as one and we're not individual and we are one tapestry and everything we do impacts each other. And I mean. Mr. Sir Isaac Nuso would agree with atoms and molecules and the reactions. So it's actually very scientific as well, and that's what I love because I worked 15 years facilitating collaborations, tuna artists and scientists, and helping them see that what they do is not so very different after all. They just have different languages and come at understanding what it means to be human and what life is and what the university is, and how we're all connected to it. But just come at it from different angles really. Steve: And I would say, I, I think a word that really resonated or came up in my mind as you were sharing there was like awareness, like of self and of course of others. Going back to the, the grand new of audience centric, it's kind of like that awareness of yourself in this process as of a design process, but also of them as well. [00:55:00] So I think that this requires a very high level of, we talked about obviously unconscious and conscious, and so just bringing that awareness to, um, yeah, some of those elements. So yeah, I want to get deep into that. But yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely a thing. So. Pigalle: Can throw in an extra word there ~then, because this is a wonderful moment for it, ~which is the word ego. Steve: Oh yes. Pigalle: And so the hardest thing for us, I often say, isn't coming up with ideas. It's actually letting go of our ego because it's our ego that are driving the ideas usually and actually step in. ~Out of the way, like constantly putting ourselves ~out of the way to put the audience center first at the beginning, during and throughout the whole process. And it's a constant check we have to do on ourselves. Is this about me? No, it's not about me, it's about them. And it's just a practice like we have to keep reminding ourselves. The more we step out of the way, the more [00:56:00] they can shine, the more they can come through, and the more they'll lead us. And then it becomes easier, the ideation, the ideas, and they're more accurate, the more effective. It's wonderful. And I love it when I Steve: Hmm. Pigalle: facilitate hold hands and then let people fly with shifting round to this way because they see how it works and it works and then they can work better. Steve: Yeah. Pigalle: So yeah, Steve: amazing. So Pigalle just to, um, yeah, let's, let's, um, let's close the pod in a, in a, in a lovely, spiritual, experiential way. What can we do? What can we do for that? Pigalle: Well, I must say then I love the love card you've got behind you in the background and you've got a lovely, happy Buddha Steve: I've got a happy bud. My Pigalle: shaking, shimmy, shaking in the background. Steve: That says a lot about my, uh, my environment. For sure, for sure. [00:57:00] Um, but no where, just where can people find you? I know you've, I know you've got a lot of links and a lot of places that people can find you and, and learn more about you. Where would you direct people? Pigalle: Yeah, they can look me up on LinkedIn. My name is Pigalle Tavakoli. There's not many of me about with my name. Um, so I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and then they can look up School of Experience Design and they can reach out to me through that as well, or through LinkedIn. Um, yeah, that, those are the best places to find me. Steve: Amazing. And we'll put all those in the show notes. Pigalle: Thank you. Steve: as always. And, um, look, Al, thank you very much for making this happen. I know you are. I know. Well, we all are really busy as we lead up to next week, but I just wanted to say thank you so much. I'm really grateful for your contribution to the podcast. Um, it kind of makes sense I think when people hear this podcast and listen and understand the show. They know why, uh, why we're together today. So thank you for that and um, yeah, look forward to, uh, to seeing you Pigalle: and thank you Steve so much for inviting me here, and thank you to all the listeners tuning in and listening back. It's so wonderful. Do you agree with us? Do you disagree? I love lots of different views and perspectives.