Sally Earnshaw - The experience of leading people in an uncertain world

Steve Usher (00:00) Sally, welcome to the Experience Designers podcast. Sally (00:04) Thank you. Thank you for having me. Steve Usher (00:06) Yeah, very warm welcome. I've been looking forward to this one this week. I've got feeling this is going to be a high energy conversation. And on that, think we're going to explore some many different topics, both business and personal. But just as a kind of an opener for us today, I'd like to just ground this for a moment in a word. And that word is oomph. And I would just want you to kind of just share out like what does this word actually mean to you? And also, what does it tell us about who you are? Sally (00:44) that is a brilliant opening question and way better than tell us a little bit about who you are as a person. So very funny story very quickly about the word umf, by the way. So was in Germany working with a client last week and I've been using the brand name umf now for a couple of years. And this is the first time this has come up, but I'm talking to my German client and they just looked at me and they just went, Sally, please tell us what does this word mean umf? So brilliant brand name doesn't translate into every language. There you go. But so where does come from? So for years and years and years, I can't even pinpoint back to when this began. I've been called the Chief Umpher as a job title. I think it began probably 20 years ago, maybe back in my blue sky days. I'm not even sure when it came up, but I think that I am known for bringing a lot of energy. sometimes irritating me, imagine, anyway, bringing a lot of energy. But for me, the word umph goes beyond energy. The word umph is much more about being able to create an energy that gets people really focused on not just being excitable and up for it, but also really targeted and focused. if I do it, it's like umph, it's like, crack on, get on with it. And so part of... Part of what I do for a living is getting everyone energized and focused and leaning in and buoyant and up for it. And, you know, so many philosophies about you only live once, go for it. But the other half of the equation is make it happen. And so it's like, for me, umph is about energy, but it's also about delivery. It's like, go out there, you've got one life, grab it by the proverbials and do something, but do it with joy and positivity and, you know, with a big... Steve Usher (02:13) Hmm. Sally (02:39) smiling your face. else is there? I honestly don't know what else there is. So in my line of work, that's what I do. And it's a very technical term. What do you do? I hunt people for a living. Steve Usher (02:49) It's brilliant. Well, I oomph people. And also I love your URL actually oomph.life and that representation of it being also life, right? And I just want to dive into this as well as where does this philosophy come from in the sense of making the most out of life and this kind of energy behind oomph? Like where does it stem from? Sally (03:13) You know, this is the point in a podcast where you're supposed to have some really poignant backstory that, you know, when I was five, what happened to me was, and then that just created this whole life philosophy. And sadly, I don't have that story, but maybe I'll just make one up. I think a few, so a few things for me, my mom, Margaret Owen Shaw is full of them and she always has been. She's the most positive woman I know and she's brilliant fun. And so I think that I just always had that around me in life, that kind of positive energy, not everybody around me in life. But my mother was always like that, know, just really joyous and up for it and fun and nothing's a problem and just never in a mood. I've never seen Mags in a mood ever. And so I think I was just always surrounded by that kind of positive energy. And I don't know whether there's a happiness gene. I think I've heard that there is. And I think maybe I just, think I have a very big one. But so I'm kind of just like that anyway. However, then going through life in the various jobs that I did, what I realized was it's what I enjoy doing. So I've always leaned towards roles that were training, facilitating, know, getting leadership jobs, like getting people to come with you and want to be involved and be part of it. I realized was, you know, a bit of a... dare I say talent, know, something that was just really blooming good at. so, so my career kind of, wasn't like some planned, you know, I've always been around positive energy, I should create this business called umph and then, you know, forever go and do that. There wasn't like that at all. And I think for most people, it's not either. My career path kind of followed that, that kind of trajectory. And as I've taken on different roles and done different things and, you know, been involved in all sorts of different, you know, Steve Usher (04:47) You Sally (05:05) corporate jobs and agency roles. It all sort of came together to your point about midlife, but it all sort of came together. I wish I'd done it sooner, but it all came together with all the life experience I've had a couple of years ago where I went, it just feels right, the right moment in time to be doing this fully branded with that as the kind of the, you know, the headline. yeah, there's no massive backstory to it. I just, love people. I love. Steve Usher (05:17) Hmm. Yeah. No. Yep. Sally (05:33) I love getting, I just love getting the best out of people. I always have. And you know, even the most cynical of rims that I've been in where people are, you know, so, you know, hurting their own bodies with the cynicism that they've got, anger and frustration for, you know, life. I just kind of go, it doesn't need to be like that. We're only here once for a very small amount of time. yeah. Yolo, Yolo if you've got teenage kids, Yolo. Steve Usher (05:45) Mmm. Yeah, we are, we are. I love that philosophy, very important. YOLO Sally (06:02) I'm not sure if that's acceptable anymore. Do you know what mean? Like maybe that's like, maybe that's a decade old. Don't broadcast. Steve Usher (06:09) It might be, I don't know. Maybe for some of our listeners, they're getting cool. I don't know. Let's talk about teenagers because I... Sally (06:10) That's it. I don't know. I don't know. Steve Usher (06:20) I love some of your posts on LinkedIn, have to say. They do make me laugh. And I love the kind of the realism element around this kind of the midlife experiences. we're both of a certain age. So, you know, as we said, you know that I know that I know that you know, but we just don't tell anyone else. what's, how are you navigating that? What's some of the... Sally (06:31) Middle-aged, middle-aged female business partner. ⁓ Steve Usher (06:49) the war stories that you have that you could share around. Yeah, tell us about that. And just navigating what, you you've started this business and you have a business, a partner, building bookshelves at home, doing all these things. what's, yeah, how are you navigating that? And I love that, again, just weaving in some of those posts that you share out that really kind of give us a glimpse into this kind of ⁓ traveler and yeah. Sally (06:52) three teenagers. the Well, I'm so glad you asked me this question. Here's the thing. So I think social media has gone, has just exploded this view of the world that everybody and all these influencers are out there and everyone's nailing it. No offence to, know, influencers who are jailing it at social media posts and everything because good for them. But I think we've got a massively distorted view ⁓ on what life really is, because let's be honest, the people who are generally out there posting and putting content out there, you've probably got two ends of the spectrum and commenting as well, right? So you've got the, at the one end of the spectrum, they're kind of real positive and like everyone's kind of putting stuff out there about, you know, here's how to be a millionaire in a week. And at the other end of the spectrum, you've got all the negativity bias stuff around isn't the world's going to hell in a hand cup. And the truth is, but the vast majority, in my very humble opinion, what do I know? But ⁓ it's, truth is, I think for most of us, we're just, Steve Usher (07:49) Hmm. Sally (08:13) find in our way somewhere in the middle trying to make sense of this thing called life which is you know we're here for probably you know if we're lucky a hundred years of it now one hopes so really only midlife but we're here for we're here for such a short amount of time and none of us really know what the purpose of it is and none of us really know what we're supposed to be doing with it and so my whole philosophy the reason I post about you know teenagers and what being a working mom and being a you know middle-aged female business traveller, it's one of my posts that gets a lot of traction, is because life is really fundamentally fricking normal, right? It's like, can you have it all if you are a working mom? Of course you can't. It's not like you can have it all. You can have three teenagers and be out travelling the universe and run a successful business. Like, of course you can't have all of that. So there's sacrifice and there's humour. There's hilarious stuff that goes with that, you know? And so I just love. Steve Usher (08:45) So funny. ⁓ Sally (09:09) I love, hopefully, and this is what I get most of the comments on my posts about, illuminating the normality of the bullshit that goes with life. Do you know what If you're going to run a business and be out there traveling the globe, working with really exciting clients, you're going to be a fairly absent parent and your kids are going to have to put up with that. There's no magic bullet for anybody. So I just love. Hopefully making people realise that their life is entirely brilliant and everything they're doing is probably completely normal and that they should feel good about themselves every day that they wake up because, you know, there's nothing that anybody's really missing. I mean, other than, you know, if you're a working mum, I write a lot about working mums, if you're a working mum and you're guilt tripping yourself every day going, my God, I'm not at home, I should be at home, should, should, should, should, should. Steve Usher (09:42) Mm. Sally (10:01) I like to write posts about stop feeling like that about yourself because you know whatever you're doing it'll be the best job that you can possibly do and so what's the point in doing A if you're going to feel bad at the same time it's like you know so a lot of my stuff is about making people laugh having people realise that ⁓ you know we're all just really normal trying to figure stuff out and and there's a lot of humour in there's a lot of humour in life that completely relates to Steve Usher (10:12) Hmm. Sally (10:28) know, leadership isn't this thing over here that people do who run companies. And then family life is this thing over here. They're completely and utterly, they cross over. So all the stuff I teach in leadership or share in leadership completely applies to life to some degree. ⁓ Steve Usher (10:48) It, and I know I will come to that because I think there's something around empathy in that around that they're just humans like anyone else, right? Just we're all just people at end of the day. It's just a title, a label. ⁓ It really is. ⁓ Can I, ⁓ I love some of the stuff you share around hotels and some of the amenities, ⁓ which is always, always gives me a, always gives me a giggle. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Sally (10:57) We're all just people, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ha Well look, haven't, well I haven't just done that. I have a philosophy you'll know because you read my posts which is I never, I never post anything bad about anybody. Right, so that's my philosophy. My philosophy is illuminate the positive stuff, like find the top, like I'm top one percenters because they're everywhere. Find the top one percenters, shine the light on them, you know, give people their moment of high five publicly as often as I can. So I rarely share anything negative, but I do find a lot of humour. in the experience of being a business traveler. Steve Usher (11:51) Wasn't there one where you forgot you brought two different pairs of shoes once? What was that? Sally (11:55) ⁓ mean, yeah, because we're all just human, aren't we? And if you're gonna be a business travel, middle-aged business traveler, menopause, clicking and all that, all sorts of things can go wrong. Yeah, I got on a train and ⁓ like my entire life is running from A to B, like just trying to pull it off. I'd like to be really organized, but in fact, on the inside of me, there was a little OCD person that's desperate to come out. Like there's this... dichotomy of I'm OCD but my life is chaos and completely messed up the whole time but like really genuinely I'd love to be not that person like there's this little voice going why are you behaving like that? So I packed my bag got on the train and I was actually going to a dinner it was like a ⁓ proper black tie dinner not black tie for me I mean wear what you like I had a nice dress Black tie dinner and I had a cocktail dress and I'd left it too late to get changed in the hotel room so I thought that's alright because I can just get there and I can get changed in the toilet on the train going up. Straightened my hair already, I was like that. I'm all hair straightened and I was just in whatever, you know, whatever thing I'd been unfitting. And yeah, I got on the train, got in the tiny little toilet. So I was like, trying to get this like real. And then I realised I couldn't zip the back up because you need somebody to help you. So I've got to. Steve Usher (13:05) full beat there yeah Sally (13:24) a dress wide open at the back. I'm in the toilet. Not a great experience being in a tiny little, not one of those ones with the big door that goes zzzz, not one of those. One of the, you know, like, ⁓ that. I one of them had to stand on the toilet to just get me dress out. ⁓ awful. And then got the shoes out and looked down and realised I had, I had two left feet, two left feet and different shoes as well. two, cause if there'd been different shoes, one right, one left, I'd have gone with that. Two lefts, different shoes. There's not much you can do with that. then I think I posted, I my trainers on and I posted, do you go with the trainers in their ball dress or do you go and get shoes? And it was about 50-50 on the responses on that one. And it was a genuine question. I wasn't trying to just get likes and comments, but a genuine question. What did you go with? anyway, went to Waterloo's, got Marks and Spencer's. So the end of that story is I did go with the go buy a new pair of shoes. Steve Usher (14:23) Very good. I think that's a wonderful representation and insight into Sally Earnshaw right there. ⁓ So Sally, let's get into a little bit of business, because I think there's ⁓ amazing insight. I really want to dive into this topic around leadership. You've worked with some of the biggest companies and leadership teams, and it's been your Sally (14:23) 25, 25 quid later. Steve Usher (14:52) your bag for some time. And I think one of the things that I've certainly observed is this kind of macro and micro level, like the amount of shifts that are happening right now. We're all part of this ecosystem, these paradigms that are emerging for all of us on so many different levels, socially, politically, work-based. And that's cool. I mean, there's a lot going on. but there's a lot going on for leaders right now as well. And also just anchoring into they are humans and they are only human. But I wanna share some statistics with you because I just thought I'd do some, little bit of a research on like what is actually going on in leadership. So I just wanna throw you some stats and just see how they land with you and see how they might trigger some of your perspective around these. And you don't have to agree with them either. So it's... Sally (15:22) Yes. haha Steve Usher (15:42) Couples that 77 % of organizations report lacking sufficient leadership debts at all levels. ⁓ And just 31 % of leaders are engaged in the workplaces and only 18 % of managers are satisfied with their jobs. And the final one, which I thought was really fascinating was around only 36 % of current leadership development initiatives are actually preparing leaders for future challenges. Sally (15:57) Wow. Steve Usher (16:10) What do you see? What does that spark for you hearing that? Sally (16:13) Well, here's my opinion on data and stats. Look, most of the stats that we get, you kind of go, where do they come from? And what's the point of the person who's producing trying to make, right? So there's a brilliantly famous one, isn't there? Yeah, 70 % of all leadership, of all change programs fail is my favorite for just going, how do you even know, like what does success and failure look like? Who's reporting this stuff? So I'm a bit of a... Steve Usher (16:18) valid. correct. Here's a caveat. Sally (16:43) bit of a cynic around, you know, data. But your first one, 77 % of ⁓ organisations, what are they reporting? Leadership, depth. Depth. So that one I can unpack, you know, whether frontline managers are disengaged or not, I think. Steve Usher (16:50) Organizations, yeah. They're lacking sufficient leadership depth, yeah. Sally (17:06) I think we've got a massive crisis in the workplace right now with, you know, there's just so much going on and people's brains are full and it's like, it just feels like the world's kind of, know, shuddering towards this big, I don't know, moment or something. I don't know. It just feels like there's a lot of stuff happening. like in my opinion, this kind of leadership depth thing, when I'm keynoting, I'll often say demands on leaders have never been greater. So I definitely agree with that point because there's the pace of change will never be slower than it is today. That's quite shocking. And so when we all just, we're all just human beings at the same time as we're all learning AI tools, Opus and stuff, you know, you've got leaders trying to run organizations who are grappling with technology issues that nobody's solved yet. So it's not like there's an answer when you just need to get in the big four consultants, they'll tell you what to do. That world's gone, right? No one knows what they're doing. Exactly. So it's a brilliant moment in time in many ways. You know, we're all just kind of working it out, but at the same time, Steve Usher (17:56) that's gone as well, yeah. Sally (18:04) In my line of work for sure, what I see is the depth of leadership now in being able to, as you're pivoting the ship in whatever direction, you're having to do that much quicker. So the years of five year strategic plans that you could then, you know, take a year to build it and then a year to engage everyone and then a year to start executing and then, you know, a couple of years, they're gone. And so now that when I work at the, usually my work is at the top and then the next couple of layers of leadership. Their big challenge is how do we set strategy at pace and then deliver what I call speed of execution and using culture as your execution edge. think people think that there's strategy and then there's this thing called culture, which you should have a good one, of course, and have some values. But over here, this is about getting the business done. And it's like, no, it's like in this... fast-paced environment where you've got to bring people with you quickly. You've got to be connected to something bigger than just making money because generations coming through now care deeply about other things. ⁓ And you've got to be able to pivot on a dime as the world changes around you and therefore you've got to be able to communicate, to evangelize, to create meaning, to... ⁓ you know, to truly build an army of people that want to follow you. And I know we would have always said leadership was about follow ship, but I kind of go, try doing that in 2025. Do you know what I mean? And so for me, that depth of leadership, sure, there's some stuff about being able to keep pace with the world, but there's this massive depth required in understanding how to engage, evangelize, like, you know, bring people with you. Steve Usher (19:33) Hmm. Sally (19:52) as you grapple and adapt to the changing environment. And that means that leaders can't be the ones who've got all the answers anymore, where it's like, we have a really clever strategy and now we're going to tell you and everyone will come with us, isn't it brilliant? Now we have to learn how to engage our people in a way that we're using the brains and the insights from our people to help us. It's a very different style of leadership. And in my experience, it is a gap. So I agree with that, you know, the depth of leadership there is hugely missing and it's not hard to learn, but it is missing. Steve Usher (20:22) Yeah. is missing. wow, there's a lot to unpack there because there's all sorts of elements. how is strategy changing? Because I think you just, this is the big one for me is this pace, because everything's just gotten quicker and quicker and quicker. So this agility, it's almost kind of going from this kind of saying we're going to set a strategy and work towards it over time to actually going, actually the strategy is the agility in the doing and moving forward without actually saying we're going to end up over here. We just don't know where we're going to end up, but what we are, we're going Northeast ish and we're going to be more iterative and work it out together towards something, towards a direction, not necessarily an endpoint. Is that, yeah. Sally (21:05) Yes. Yes. Yes, I think it's, and actually if you kind of go, how long has this been around? I think it was Jack Welsh, I mean, a long time ago now, who said, he said something like, strategy sounds a lot more complicated than it is. In real terms, what is strategy? Have a general idea about where you're going and then run like hell. It's like, just, you know, and I think even though that's not a narrative that came from today, I feel like it's the most relevant. Steve Usher (21:20) Yeah. Sally (21:42) ⁓ kind of metaphor for strategy today in the sense that have a general sense of direction, have a general sense of the ambition, but then execute really quickly, like learn how to build. And you know, there was a time wasn't there when the technology world was teaching everybody how to be agile and there were agile programs everywhere. Everyone's doing agile. And the only bits that people really took, if you're honest, standups, which was sitting down for an hour. That's not a standup. Steve Usher (22:01) Dave Wallace. Sally (22:08) So like we stole standups, we stole stories and epics and know, like bits that people like the sound of. But the truth is most big corporates then haven't really become agile. There's phantom bullshit work going on all over the place. know, people running around doing work that creates no value and being able to focus the efforts and energies of people in a way that people are executing more quickly but also raising red flags when things go wrong. Genuinely think that, you know, we started talking about agile. I don't know, decade ago, we really, really need to be working in a more agile way in our organizations. And that requires more trust. It requires a fail fast mindset. I these are not new topics. There's podcasts everywhere on fail fast mindset, but only a few companies do it and do it well. And so I think that's why there's a massive opportunity for the small to mid enterprise organizations now who are built with that mindset, who can start to... Steve Usher (22:50) No? Yeah. Sally (23:07) I can't predict the future, but I do wonder if it's going to be more challenging for the big BMOF organisations to keep pace. And we see a bit of that now already with challenger brands popping up all over the place. So, yeah. Steve Usher (23:18) Yeah. I And as we were talking about as well, just even from a marketing perspective, brands are able to actually get to customers so much easier now with the algorithms across social channels and those things. there's a lot to deal with. Where are the gaps right now, if you kind of had to say, within kind of the leadership experience? ⁓ Anchoring back again, there are only human. Sally (23:30) Yeah. Yes. Steve Usher (23:47) They're all having their own experience of being a leader inside a context, inside of an organizational culture. Where's some of the kind of the big misses right now or areas where leaders are lacking or where those, some of those greater opportunities are within that as well. Sally (24:05) That's a big question. ⁓ Start big. ⁓ So, I mean, there's the obvious one, which is, ⁓ I mean, and also when we talk about organizations, you know, there's everything from your little niche right up to big corp and there's different sex. So, you know, we're sort of talking to the very average narrative here and it's very different in lots of different organizations. But if I just talk to the very average narrative. ⁓ Steve Usher (24:07) I know, I'm starting big. Hmm. Sally (24:34) There's definitely a gap in, sort of laughing when I say this, because we all have this gap, but keeping pace with what's happening. Just the whole, like AI was sort of a thing, and then it was a bit more of a thing. And then now it's it's like, kicking us all in the back. Do you know what mean? It's like, it's here. You see all the grass, don't you? It was sort of a thing, then. So we're there, we're right. So this whole. Steve Usher (24:54) it's Sally (25:01) keeping pace with what's relevant, what's not. It's not even that easy to understand because it's like a huge thing. You know, couldn't understand it if you spent a whole month just in a dark room trying to understand it. It's evolving and so it's like this almost unfathomable new era that we're in. And the only way to, ⁓ I think, to keep pace with it is to be in it, knee deep, to be using tools, to be playing, to be part of it, to not just be waiting for an expert to tell you. Steve Usher (25:25) Doing it. Sally (25:30) Um, you know, there's a whole, I hate this narrative. People say young people now use technology and all people don't, it's bullshit. I mean, my mom and dad use chat GPT to, um, work out how to, you know, maximize opt optimize their fridge ingredients to build recipes every week. mean, you know, this, I've talked about that one as well. Good old Don and Mags, um, bit of chat GPT. Um, you know, but my kids are not using chat GPT and I'm like, hang on a minute. Aren't you supposed to be the generation that is they are now? Um, but. Steve Usher (25:58) Mm-hmm. Sally (26:00) there's kind of, there's that whole bucket of keeping pace, right? And you've got to be in it, playing with it and ⁓ not resisting it. Then I kind of go, there's the, sort of, let's call it setting direction, the setting direction and getting people to come with you. That is a, this is going to sound really, again, I'm talking to the average and it might sound. Steve Usher (26:04) Yep. Sally (26:24) You could probably disprove it if you were to do loads of data analysis on it, but in my experience a lot of people who are at the top of organizations tend to have a bias towards tangible. So they are much more on the analytical, because let's be honest, if you want to be a CEO of a big organization, what kind of person do you have to be? Somebody who can live with that amount of pressure and not actually lose sleep over it. There's a... I'm not saying that... everybody is missing a bit of an empathy chip. what I would say is that, you know what mean? It's like, there's a type of person who rises to the top of an organization and it's a rarity to find them to be the ones who are the people engages. They tend to be the thinkers. And in the new economy, that's a big gap because, you know, we have to be able to bring our people with us and we need to be open to learning and adjusting and adapting and being wrong and all of the things that come with a bigger empathy. Steve Usher (26:55) I hear you. Sally (27:21) ⁓ kind of drive. And I think that's a bit of a gap. And you can learn it, you don't have to feel it, you can learn how to bring people with you. So there's that kind of a gap. And then come down a layer, there's this what I call a speed of execution gap, which is this sort of path clearing, removing things from the organization that are not in pursuit of the general direction, getting rid of noise. Steve Usher (27:23) Mm-hmm. Sally (27:50) and having all your leaders at every level skilled with what you might have called in 1983 a lean toolkit. Do you know what I mean? It's like, were selling lean then and it's like, no, we need it now. It's like more than that, more than that, lean, yeah. Steve Usher (28:01) I remember lean didn't that come out that came out GE didn't it Six Sigma Lean Six Sigma I think it did. ⁓ Sally (28:06) But yeah, yeah. And there was a big spike in lean and then it sort of disappeared. It's like, no, bring it back. And so, you know, it's that path clearing permission culture building. is stuff that I talk about a lot, but, you know, having people with a general sense of direction empowered to go forth and make some stuff happen. That's a whole path clearing empowered culture thing. ⁓ Steve Usher (28:13) Yes. Mm. Sally (28:34) and then come down a layer from that, then it's about, you know, what are the very specific behaviors that therefore we need to really empower in our organizations. That's different for every sector, but if you've got leaders who can, you know, bring those out in their people at the same time as focusing on tasks. So there's so much, I think, at the same time, they've got loads of organizations being really successful. So can't be that big a guy. ⁓ Steve Usher (28:58) And we'll, and we'll, we'll come to that. We'll come to that. And just to also like keeping pace. ⁓ what, came to my mind there was like inertia is not your friend right now, like leaning, leaning and just go test. mean, it's a really, important thing. I think one of the things that I'm seeing, which is really encouraging, ⁓ obviously one of my favorite podcasts, Dara of a CEO has a head of experimentation. Sally (29:10) Yes. Yes. Steve Usher (29:23) Uh, where, and I think now even a team now, but they're, they're, they're targeted to experiment and fail, I think 50 times or something. So I think it's amazing. And then I saw the other day, uh, I think it's Heineken, someone just got, got a new role, which was, uh, as part of experimentation, uh, inside the organization. And I was just, I literally commented and said, like, amazing to see this go forth and fail many times over. Enjoy, enjoy, right. Enjoy. I mean, what a job that is. Um, Sally (29:37) Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, Amazon are known for this, right? So they, the reason why, I was a chat with someone about this the other day and they were saying the reason why Amazon is so good at it is because they got the bandwidth to be good at it in the sense that if you're making that much money, you've got the, you know, you can create an environment where there's whole divisions to set up to experiment, to try stuff, to fail. And I get it, there were some organizations say we just don't have that bandwidth. Steve Usher (29:55) Yeah. Sally (30:22) But equally, that's why that company has become so successful. It's like that philosophy. I don't work with Amazon. I've done a little bit with them over the years. But, you know, it's like that philosophy, I think, was ingrained right from the beginning. they have, I tell you what's fascinating, just going off on a side bit for a minute, which is what I find super fascinating is the most successful companies that I either work with or I hear about are ones where there's like a diligence, like a precision, like things that you can talk about that are just different from what everybody else does and you can name them. And when you tell everybody else about it, they kind of go, yeah, but that's an Amazon thing or that's what they do. But in any company that's super successful, I can cite things that they do that are different because if you're trying to deliver speed of execution, you're going to have to be really precise about what you are gonna do and what you're not gonna do. And simplest example I can give you is... because I know that this goes, does the rounds on LinkedIn Lays, but you know Amazon talk about their philosophy of if they're going to, if a topic surfaces to the top of the organization is something worth discussing, in fact, in any meeting, then ⁓ Jeff Bezos said that their philosophy was you had to be able to write it down ⁓ on a one page memo, no PowerPoint slides, because PowerPoint slides eat organizational time. do like thousands of people spend putting slides. So. Steve Usher (31:43) Yeah. Sally (31:49) one page memo and then they would read the memo in the meeting. Because he said, in most meetings, if you ask the leaders in the room, did everybody read the pre-work, people will say yes, even when they didn't. So they used to create 10 minutes of what I imagine is awkward silence at the beginning of a meeting, like a read test, where they read the memo. And then they discuss the memo with everybody, you know, having the same level of insight as to the problem we're trying to solve. Now that is an organisational thing that is known about that company that they do diligently and with precision and purposefully. And you kind of go if you're running a business and you're not doing things to that level of detail, precision, do you know what I mean? It's like, that's why they're so successful, because they know there isn't time for noise. So they've just eradicated it. And I just kind of go from a speed of execution perspective, all the best companies have things like that that they do that are a Steve Usher (32:32) Yeah. Sally (32:45) that we might, the rest of us go, that's really quirky. That's why it works. There's so many of them. Steve Usher (32:48) Yes, but that, I think there's another example on that, which is that you mentioned noise. I think it ⁓ was Steve Jobs, yeah, talks about signals and noise. And his thing was around every day, it was what are the top five signals or things that you need to get done in that 18 hours and forget the noise. And. Sally (33:00) Thank you. Yes. Steve Usher (33:12) that that and he had a very clear thing. I think that it had like a literally a in the diary or a setup. It was literally noise signal. That's it. And focus on the signal and going back to your point as well. Now the noise I'm finding is just getting louder and louder and more and more. And I struggle. I struggle with concentration and trying to keep focused on tasks and things. And so that discipline and that awareness to like, what's the noise? Sally (33:19) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Steve Usher (33:41) And what's the shiny thing over there, which trust me, I love the next shiny toy. That's a big problem with AI right now, because there's millions of shiny toys. And I'm like, I don't even know which one to go for. ⁓ but that is the reality. And, and so I think there's this overwhelm both in work, but when we leave work as well, it's just like, it's quite full on right now. think everybody's feeling that. Sally (33:45) Hahaha. Yes. Yes. Interestingly, so we talked about the gap for leadership and I'm to have an interesting conversation not to promote my stuff, but I can't help but tell you this. So interestingly, one of the big topics that has become like one of the things that I bring to the party more often than I used to is a thing called Space to Lead. My friend, Philippa Horrell, who also does leadership work, and she's brilliant. This is kind of her bag, but we facilitate together. So I steal her stuff openly, I tell her. But this whole thing, she coined the phrase Space to Lead and I love it. Steve Usher (34:10) Do it. Sally (34:31) Right. And it's got five principles in it. And again, it's like a little toolkit of stuff, but it's now much more prevalent than it was five years ago. And it starts with ⁓ results focus. So if you ask a hundred leaders in a room who has a to-do list, everybody says, I've got a to-do list. And then you say, who's got a, like, who's got three results written down that, you know, you've to achieve this week. And it's rarely anybody. So that, to that point about Steve Jobs, like his thing, he calls it signals that I call it results focus. Right. So what are the three results? you need to achieve this week. Can't be tasks, can't be actions, results, right? Number two, what are the leverage actions that will deliver that result? So get them to write down everything that's in their diary, write it all down, everything you've got going on now, plot them on a four box grid, everybody loves a four box grid, plot them on a four box grid, right? Stuff that takes you loads of time and delivers no value versus the stuff that takes you minimal time, but for example, sending an email takes longer than a quick call. and the call will deliver more value. So that's called leverage, sending emails are low value activities. So you get them to plot all their activities and they realize mostly that our diaries are filled with non-leverage activities. So once you've got your results, what are the leverage activities, the best impact on the small amount of time that I've got, because guess what? Single resource, can't create more time. I know it's terrible, but we can't. So AI hasn't invented that yet. Steve Usher (35:42) Mm-hmm. I Sally (35:59) So leverage actions, then guess what? Big rocks. So plotting your big, like what are the, you've heard the expression, eat the frog, right? Plan your diary around the big things, not the small things. So big rocks, get them baited in. Power hour, everybody has one hour or two hours a day when there's loads of science behind this about when you're your most productive mentally. For most people, it's two hours after you've woken up. Planning a big rock, a frog, in a power hour and do that every day in pursuit of your results. And then the last one is delegate works for big organizations. If your single resource doesn't work so much delegate to whom the dog, but, you know, what are the, what is, what is your diary full of that you're doing? Because I always feel like delegation is a bit of a low level skill, right? When people talk about delegation skills, I know most senior leaders go, that's a first line manager training. And I go, let's look at where you're operating. Right. Because a lot of senior leaders will. Steve Usher (36:52) Hmm. Sally (36:57) spend their time doing the work that they were doing maybe a role ago because we were bloody good at it and guess what when you're good at it you get a dopamine hit because you're amazing probably best in class right but you are operating at a level lower than you should so how do you step up most top team conversations I have out of interest so there's the top and then there's the next 30 to 50 people who are your speed of execution right that's that's who's going to execute you should be navigating the ship Steve Usher (37:13) Interesting. Sally (37:27) speed of execution. Most top twos I talk to will say, we've got a problem with this layer. That's where the conversation starts. We've got a problem with this layer. And I'll say, you know, different problems that different people cite, but you kind of go, why is there a problem with that layer? Because we probably haven't been really clear on where we're going, on what we want them to do, equip them to be able to go forth and execute, stepped out of their shoes and let them get, do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, I've got a problem with this layer. I wonder if it's a problem with you. Steve Usher (37:55) Hahaha Sally (37:57) and then and then I either get hired or I get fired let's start here shall we Steve Usher (38:00) You Self awareness, right? I mean, it's, we're not, we're all not perfect. We're all not perfect. Yeah. Sally (38:07) No, exactly. But my point is that just that whole thing that you said about ⁓ noise, that space to lead thing has become a much bigger thing because there's more noise, more to deal with, and that whole single focus dedicated hour where you've not got, where you're not listening to notifications, you're not, know, single focus for least an hour every day. And people cite massive efficiency gains when they do that. Steve Usher (38:13) Mm. Yes. you mentioned there, this is a big one, communication. how they are communicating the vision and bringing people along with them. Sally (38:41) Yes. Yes. Steve Usher (38:43) So I know you talk about communication. It's a big thing around your, your, the work that you do. Just tell us a little bit more about that and, uh, and your, your view. Yeah. Sally (38:50) Oh, I'm so glad. So glad you asked me. I'm to begin with Dr. Zeus. So you had the Dr. Zeus books, right? You already did. Yeah. So that's kind of good. Otherwise, this anecdote doesn't really lie. But there's a quote from a Dr. Zeus book that I use all the time. I've got a slide with it on and it says, today you are you that is truer than true. There is no one alive that is you within you. And I always start my communication work with readers with that to say there is not one way. Steve Usher (38:57) Yeah, cool. Yeah. Sally (39:20) to engage, to evangelize, to show passion, to get people excited, to get people leaning in, to get them to want to follow you. There's a billion ways of doing that. So when I say you gotta get people to come with you, what I'm not saying is like this. I'm saying the end goal is to get people to come with you. But I have seen so many different ways of doing that, from the really ⁓ intentional, reflective, sincere, Steve Usher (39:39) Hmph. Sally (39:50) ⁓ heartfelt storytelling, quiet leadership that you could hear a pin drop in the room when they start to talk right the way through to the... Who was the guy? Microsoft, Steve Ballmer, you know, I love this company! was back in 1980, I think. There's a video right back then, you know, when we got back on set. I'm sweating a bit. We were allowed to sweat in 1980. But, you know, and he runs on... Steve Usher (39:58) Wow. There is... it's so good. Yeah, yeah. Sally (40:18) And everybody would go, I can't be like that. And I'd say, no, don't be like that. That's not the ask. The ask isn't to dial up something you don't have. The ask is to use whatever is your preference, your style, what you bring, but use it in a way. I teach stuff around, there was some universal truths around communication, storytelling. We all love stories. And so, That's a universal, and anybody can tell a story in any communication preference. The more detail oriented, the probably longer. you know, storytelling, maximizing the first seven seconds of what you say, because that's where people are gonna judge the first seven seconds. That's a customer experience thing. You know, ⁓ only talking about three things, ending on, yeah. There's some universal truths about how to communicate with impact, but the manner in which you show up to that. ⁓ Steve Usher (41:18) Hey! ⁓ don't know. That was amazing! And it was spot on, exactly as she said it as well, the manner of which... Fantastic! Sally (41:35) That's my manner. That's hilarious. I couldn't do that again if I tried. That's the world we're living in. But the manner in which you choose to do that is Dr. Zeus. I just, my whole approach with leaders is, particularly in this communication, evangelizing, get people to want to follow you space, is giving them confidence that every... Steve Usher (41:42) I love it. Sally (42:02) There's seven things, I play a Shark Tank video and there's seven things that he does that make him brilliant. I say all of those seven things are replicable by all of us. There's nothing amazing about the way that he communicates. He just does these seven things that everybody can do. And one of them, by the way, is he's like super positive, energetic. You can tell he's just really excited. And my strapline on that is leadership energy is free and it requires zero skill. and that's why I'm running at it every day, right? It's free and it requires zero skill. So if we're wearing the leadership pants, you can turn the dial up on energy every day of life. Do you know what I mean? It's like it requires zero talent to do it. And so, you know, yeah, if people are kind of going, it's not really my thing. If you've got leadership pants on, it has to be your thing, but it's really not hard to do and you can be you. Steve Usher (42:46) Mm-hmm. I have a question on the future leadership side as well. Okay, let me share this. So if we're moving, because you mentioned Generation Z earlier and other younger generations coming through, so their view of management and leadership, lesser taken up management roles, what I've heard. But also this, yeah, and I'm also really curious around how we view that path to leadership. Sally (43:12) Yes. Good. Steve Usher (43:26) In the good old days, was career ladder, work your way up. And I've got this thing like, well, I'm all just mentioning career ladder, the only way is up, feels really 1950s already. So we're moving into much more like dynamic, self-organized, there's more of that happening. So actually the route to leadership and how we support people into those roles or even choose people to take those roles. Sally (43:29) yeah yeah yeah Yeah. Steve Usher (43:55) How is that gonna change if the ladder is evolving and maybe the ladder isn't a ladder anymore, it's something completely different? I'm really curious on that. Sally (44:01) Yeah, yeah. I do know, don't, I think that ⁓ big cops are going to be around for a long time. Otherwise the stock market is going to crash and we're all in trouble. So I think big cops are, so I still think there's going to be lots of that hierarchy kind of, know, kind of like, I think that's, that's around for hopefully some time. So I think that some of the rules that have applied to this point will still apply. Do you think though, you hope that there's more people coming into the Steve Usher (44:12) correct. great. Sally (44:28) not necessarily the workplace, but the workspace. I certainly say this to my kids, there's never been a better time to build your own business. anybody can, Steve Usher (44:35) Totally. Sally (44:37) But if you do start your own thing, chances are you're going to need to not necessarily employ people, but you're going to need to build an army of, people that you network with, people that you bring in freely. You're going to need to be able to lead others in whatever dynamic that looks like. It might not be the traditional one to eight or one to 10, but you're going to need to be able to get people to be part of your thing. And so I think, I still think the principles of setting direction, being clear on the expectation, galvanizing effort and energy, focusing people on the task, being results focused, clearing up. all those things we talked about. think true whether you are going to run your own thing or be an employee somewhere else. I think the principles will stay hopeful as long as I'm around, otherwise I'm going to go out of business really quick. Steve Usher (45:26) I Well, I heard, I read somewhere the other day that, Sally, thank you so much for an enrich conversation. I think it's really lovely. I think you bring a lot of humanness to what you do, lot of authenticity and energy, of course, and a lot of oomph. And, ⁓ it's been, it's been a really lovely conversation. ⁓ I would like to just, I'd like to just round, round the off because something which, ⁓ I will share with you actually, because I, I, as part of how we experiment here on the podcast is that we, do in the, in the research on our guests, Sally (45:50) Hahaha! Steve Usher (46:05) there was something I picked up, which I was like, okay, well, are an opportunity part of this to maybe just close off ⁓ gratitude because you talked about this also right at the beginning. ⁓ So let's just let ground for a second and have a think about like, what are you what are you grateful for? What are the three things that you're grateful for right now? And what you where we could kind of finish off with? that kind of energy for everybody. Sally (46:31) to only have three things that I'm grateful for would be my biggest problem. I mean, yeah, have you got another hour? I mean, you know, there's the obvious ones, Steve Usher (46:34) Do you want five? Do you want five? I mean, I do. Yeah, I mean, I write 10 every day, but yeah, there's tons to be grateful for. Sally (46:43) I'm very grateful for my health. I am incredibly grateful for my, ⁓ my family, my relationships, my kids, all of that stuff, you know, to have, be existing in a life where I have really zero trauma to be dealing with, I'm incredibly grateful for, could happen at any moment. I know lots of people going through all sorts of things that I am just not, so I'm super grateful for that. And then the third would be, I am really grateful that I get to do something that I love. It is hard, you know, it's hard work. Sometimes I'm not thinking like this when I'm on a plane at 11 o'clock at night coming back from Scotland or, know. Steve Usher (47:03) Hmm. course. Sally (47:17) Salzburg or wherever but you know I'm really grateful that I get to do something I love I get to meet thousands of people every year and ⁓ and mostly I get to make people you know my whole thing is making people smile and feel a bit a bit good about themselves so I'm super grateful for that but yeah I mean the gratitude thing I think is a massive thing I I blog about it and you found that but it's like You know, there's always something that you can be grateful for and it does change the mindset, especially when you're feeling a little bit, you know, about the world. It's like, right, what am I grateful for? And it has to be three different things every day. Steve Usher (47:46) It does. Absolutely. Sally (47:56) Get Steve Usher (47:56) Sally, I'm grateful for your time today. Thank you. That was my most valuable asset in life. So thank you for that. I love, love this conversation and thank you for your contribution to the experienced designers podcast and amazing. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Thank you. Sally (47:56) likes out of it. ⁓ I loved it. Thank you very much for having me. It's thoroughly enjoyable.