Stefan Moritz - Are We Ready for Experiences Co-created with AI?

Steve: [00:00:00] So, Stefan, welcome to the experienced designers. An absolute pleasure to have you in my humble abode today. nice to you. You like it? Fantastic. This is all for you. This is all for you. Um, so look, let's dive in. Let's, I just wanna, like, there's something we picked up on that I wanted to use as a bit of a segue to kick off our pod today. Uh, which was you kind of describe your career as like a mosaic career. Yes. Uh, which I really loved. So I wanted to use that as a way of like, let's dissect that mosaic and the different elements of that. Um, tell us more about that. Yeah, Stefan: so I mean, I, I always like metaphors. Um, so when I, when I was reflecting on the, the, the journey last two years, uh, that, that sort of came to my mind that, uh, it's not the tera it's not the puzzle, it's not the balance, uh, and the um. the starting point for it was [00:01:00] literally one of those moments of clarity that you re read about in books and, and biographies. And I was sitting, friend of mine had, uh, decided to celebrate his 50th in, in Italy. So we were like driving a little chink, which to the coast and Steve: Nice Stefan: sitting there on the beach and sort of dawned on me that maybe working more is not the solution to everything. And then very quickly these sort of mosaic pieces started to click in into place somehow that, you know, work less focus on that. What, what do you do with the rest of the time? And I've been, I've been doing a lot of education sessions, exploration with different leaders and boards on how does AI change, uh, leadership. Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: And I often start with the question, what are you going to do with the two days? As a sort of bit of a provocative, because many people have read the report. I mean, already five years ago we had this report that. If you look at all the tasks people do, 50% can be automated. Doesn't mean it's jobs, it's [00:02:00] tasks and, and all of that. But, you know, there is this potential and somehow leaders have assumed that that is somewhere in the organization. So just that framing of, well, this is proportionate. And, uh, I mean, usually in that setting, when you say the CFO is the most automateable job, that laugh always goes well, but, you know, PE people haven't thought about it so much. And so, so I spent a lot of time thinking and part of the mosaic for me was about eating my own dog food to kind of try out, okay, how would you actually organize everything and rethink everything if, if you alter sort of one structure that we have always, I mean, not taking for granted, but you know, it's like nobody has questioned the idea of working five days a week since fourth invented the production line. Um, and so it was, it was a bit of a self experiment with many, many failures, you know, the list of 50 things I wanted to do. Yeah. Not everything has happened. I can reveal. [00:03:00] Uh, but yeah, so, so the, the, the mosaic is a, you know, it is not emerging, but it's something that it is not flat or Steve: mm-hmm. Stefan: Now it's done. That, that's also where that metaphor works because you're moving pieces around and then you see, oh, there's a gap there. You try to patch that in the meantime, something else is sliding. Steve: Mm-hmm. the metaphor is actually pretty good. Steve: I like that. And, and as a mosaic, would you say there's like a different sizes of tiles, as it were, so some might be bigger than others, and like how you kind of swap these things around? It's like more modularization, isn't it? How we think about work Stefan: Yeah, so I've, Steve: have you thought about Stefan: I've not thought about it as a jpeg filter. I, I just saw last weekend, uh, last weekend, an artwork where they had literally made the mosaic with sort of very large pieces on the sky. I mean, like a JP filter. And then the deer and the hedgehog were like little micro things. Steve: [00:04:00] and Stefan: I guess to some extent in life you have that as well, but, but it's more zones where, you know, the, there is this pizza model of, you know, what, what are the elements you need to have in balance between, between your, your, your social side work health and, and when you do that exercise, you realize like how many other things there are, but work. Oh, yeah. So I think that that is the first realization how the focus and effort we put on things. Versus proportionally how much time we spend on things and versus how proportionately important they're to us is out of whack. So, you know, everybody's trying to sleep as little as necessary because then you are very productive. Where actually if you sleep more, you're more productive. And we know all of these things, but it's somehow really difficult to, to take control of it. And [00:05:00] in, in work terms, you know, we, we, we take that as a, as a time budget. We, you know, we, we try to max on all, all levels. And actually it turns out, if you have some space, I mean, to, to me, the covid time was actually the best period where you're forced to look after yourself for real and also look after your team and look, look after each other. And, and at that time it dawned on me that we've never been trained in that. Steve: No. Stefan: So if you go to management school, it's not that you sort of learn self-leadership. Steve: Hmm. Can I just ask like, what was the trigger for you? Because you, you, you shared like there's a, there's a lovely visual or visualization that are driving through Italy and having this kind of perspective and this thoughts around mosaic and experimentation. And just tell us a little bit more about how you've experimented and also maybe where, where some of those failures have been as well. Because I, I love that you shared that as a, rather than [00:06:00] pure success, it's actually, yeah. We need to fail in order to succeed. Stefan: Yeah. So I think the, the trigger for me was, I mean, you know, partially feeling stuck and sort of that all, all the stuff I wanted to accomplish, it just felt like, you know, I need to do more and more and more. Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: And also at that time, I. The, there, there, there, there were moments having an innovation design agency within the McKinsey context that felt like, you know, in these medieval pictures where you have a horse on every ligament and you're stretched between running a creative culture and educating and shaping and finding, you know, business plus tech, plus design, these new things. And, and I could go very quickly from super exciting, I mean, certainly intellectually with great people, but then also where you question your, your, your remit and what, what are, what are we doing? So, so it could feel like a heart, a heart transplant where you are [00:07:00] rejected by the body even though it's needed and, and, and you or, you know, I, I try to compensate that by working smarter, not working harder. And obviously you are calibrated by the environment that you're in. So if you work with highly ambitious people that, that they're all going, you know, more than full throttle, your benchmark is a little bit off. And I think that that was the, the trigger where I sort of realized, hang on, just sort of doing more of the same. It is, it's not going anywhere. And, and what would it look like if I take a step back? And then almost like in a design process where you're re-imagining things to take that step back and reframe. And before I came into that sort of mosaic mindset, that that was, that was what what I sort of what the epiphany was based then. Steve: What was the, um, that's really interesting. What was, how I'll give, explain, or share, like what was, [00:08:00] what was like your human experience at that point? Where were some of the tensions that you were feeling inside of yourself as part of your, your experience at that moment? mean, Stefan: it was literally like a 20 minute experience and it felt like things clicking in place, like click, click, click, click, click, Um, as as if all the answers were sort of in me, but that decision of let's take a step back and almost built everything from the ground back up, it allowed these things to fall into place that where they're wanting to fall in place. That's what it felt like. I dunno if that Steve: interesting. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Stefan: And I felt a huge excitement on, you know, the, this, this, at, at, so this is like, I dunno, two, two-ish years ago, maybe even three. I need to calculate that. But, um, Steve: I was Stefan: meeting all of these senior leaders that were all a bit puzzled by this AI thing happening. Everybody understood this is big. We are [00:09:00] trying to look for metaphors, you know, is it like the internet? Is it like the industrial revolution? But, you know, just trying to contextualize this is, this is a big thing. And my intuition was if we let it happen, if we let it play out, it won't be good for inclusivity. It won't be good for protecting value. And, um, the, the, the human experience as part of the whole thing, which is what we now see playing out in some places. Um, and I believed if you allow leaders in a safe space to just try on different options, what could happen? And then think about second degree implications. So one example was, um, you could have Microsoft co-pilot listen to meetings and transcribe them. Does that mean you should have more boring meetings Steve: mm-hmm. Stefan: that are now transcribed? Or is that an opportunity to kind of re rethink your, your meeting culture and say, well, [00:10:00] okay, interesting. If everything can be on top all the time. Maybe not everybody has to be in these meetings because they can get the digest and maybe we can save time to have more space for creativity and then we do it in that. But very few have gone there. And culturally, the big question at that moment is, do I trust the company that we are part of that is now listening to everything I do. How does that feel? And I think as soon as leaders get to that place to understand not just what is technically happening, I think that is also important that everybody has somewhat an understanding of what's in the black box. But it is actually more important to then think in what does that do to people and does it have to be that way? So what I'm now talking about, don't give the agency to the agents Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: that, that we keep control of how we want this to be and take time to think. OOO, okay. How, how [00:11:00] would we actually like to work and where, where is actually the biggest value in collaborating, sharing, and all of these things. So going back to the epiphany Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: I wanted to see on myself, how can you, how can you design your life if that was a new reality that you worked three days a week? So would it change the quality of your life, but also, um, to test out that, that agency concept that I'm actually now taking control and proactively trying something rather than it happening to me. And how does that feel? And I mean, to your question of the failures, the, the excitement for me was about having more focus on the things that I was caring about. So do more leadership education and not do anything else. So out of this three day construct became like, okay, focus on one project, don't do five. And [00:12:00] in, in, in sort of legitimacy at work, it's like, okay, well if you're only working three days a week, everybody understands you can't do everything. So it became as the sort of first implication at work, very easy to say, I'm, I'm, I'm really sorry this, this is not something I, I can take on. Or I might coach somebody, but I'm, I'm not taking responsibility for that. And I have watched a lot of people Steve: grow, Stefan: uh, from that decision of mine because basically I, I was saying no to things other people could step in, step up, take over. And that was actually really fun to watch where before I would've felt guilty. And I've also seen other colleagues in my team that had worked sort of 90% or they, they had small kids and they, they, they tried different experiments, but they were all going a little bit down in time trying to compensate and, and. Basically react the way I felt about it, even though it's not, it's, it's 10% difference [00:13:00] we're talking about, but I was building it from the ground up and I was only working three days a week, and there was all this space. It felt like a different construct. And it's been like that. Even, even when I've gone a little bit up and a little bit down, the, the feeling was always I'm, I'm owning this and I am, I'm allowing space for other things. Then I had assumed I need to plan what I do in these other things, and I was sloppy with that and I really enjoyed it. So, so that meant the, the two days where in productivity terms, like, you know, all these sort of, you know, the, the book I wanted to write, I, I have begun, but that's about it, right? Mm-hmm. And then I, I went through the motions of not beat myself up about that. Then think, well, those two days are precious time. I mean, you get a real hit on your salary, so it's a sacrifice you make. [00:14:00] Should I not do something more? But then I sort of realized actually that freedom is the, the ultimate value. It's not what you do with it, but it, it's the feeling on a Wednesday afternoon. I could now, if I, if I really wanted to, I, I, I think, I think, I want to think that I want to have a tea in the book. I could, but actually I would rather hang out with you. So often what, what actually happens is like, I, I love meeting people. I, I, you know, I love connecting and sharing and thinking and thinking in conversation. Love it. So that's what I did. Steve: That's amazing. And I think that that's, that's showing like this, this self-awareness of this kind of understanding, okay, this current paradigm of running at a million miles an hour of which many organizations are, have this construct to maintain shareholder value, to drive profit, to, um, get ahead of competition, this [00:15:00] relentlessness of industrial era and also modern business. And I think this is a really interesting, like, I, I not, I don't wanna call it a conflict, but I think there's these paradigms I think that we either have to embrace or understand more around the existing paradigm of how do we, how do we ensure that AI isn't being used in a way to just make things go faster, more profitable exclusively, but to what benefit on another side? Yeah. And to sharing your point there around creating space to be human, to be creating space to do other things. Yeah. Which still defining what does other things actually mean and that's gonna be different for different people. Um. So I'm just curious, like, 'cause I know this is a, this is an interesting one. I talk a lot around time. Well saved time, well spent time well invested. Stefan: Mm-hmm. Steve: And time. You've used that word time a few times already. And it's kind of interesting that we, we have this thing of time [00:16:00] and this intentionality to bring time well saved. And I think there's such, to your very early comment about tasks, automation is what if we embrace that fully, intentionally to time well saved? How, what would this mean for leadership and people to really reflect on their work? Um, 'cause that's, I I, I sense this is a journey you are on yourself anyway. But I'm just curious, like, what, what's the challenges for, for people who are in existing construct and paradigms, leaders in particular, who, who need to maybe take a step back and, and go inward. Mm-hmm. I wanted to Stefan: to ask you actually, when we, when we talk about employee experience, uh, you know, we often end up designing the experience for people instead of. creating conditions to kind of foster experience with and, and, you know, with together four Steve: people. With and [00:17:00] for. Yeah. Stefan: But we, we can go back to that later because I think you're onto something really interesting that in a way, uh, I, I just, I just read a really interesting book from the CHRO of the CIA who goes back to Etsy and this sort of, you know, the cave guy that was in the eyes. He has the same brain as us, so the hardware that we are walking around with hasn't changed. The, and it is interesting that we, when you go back in time, um, people have always used the latest technology we know as the metaphor for the brain. Right. So it's been a telegraph, it's been a plumbing system. Now we're using software and hardware and AI networks will probably be how we think about the brain next. But in, in physical terms, we're the same. And as physical creatures [00:18:00] in evolutionary terms, we were intended to do only two things, either run away from sharp teeth and uh, Steve: uh, whatever, Stefan: uh, or to create a social system that we trust and that is actually an investment in, in safety. And, and our, our mind is either in this sort of very comfortable social space where we relax, given that we have invested in our core cave friends and we have a shared goal in bringing up our young and make sure there's enough moose on the table. And, you know, and if we snap out of that, we're in flight and run mode. It's only that. Hmm. And in the times that we're in now, I reflect quite often that leaders are almost like constantly rather on the, uh, fright and flight mode of, of, of our brain, all the hormones that come with it, the way we are taking decisions that come at it.[00:19:00] And then one of the leadership trainings that we did, we, we reflected a lot on sort of self-awareness just in these two modes. And, and, and to think about what decisions have you taken and, and, and how were they sort of framed by what, what mode you were in and how you can influence, just have taking better decisions by putting your mind in a certain frame of reference. And I think what you're talking about is that, but on a meta level, that we are used still from the industrial era, that everything is rather mechanical. And if you think about it, the school system we have today is based on making factory workers and many MBA courses today are still. Even if digital has come in there and, and people talk about, you know, uh, growth being exponential, we, we can't really understand that. So the, the, physicality of how our bodies work has been translated into how we run businesses and we expect a proportional [00:20:00] outcome. So you put your time in and I mean, there are still companies that have time sheets where you clock in, like in a factory and then you clock out. Um, the, uh, the fact that, um, the value or the outcome has actually very little to do with the time that you put in, uh, that that is something that we, we, we, we sort of somehow wrestle with. And I think if you go into the social cozy mode, the companies that have invested a lot in culture. They, they reap the benefits without necessarily always understanding how it works. So, so people talk about psychological safety. You know, we, we've talked about this before, the big Google experiment. What, what drives all the successful projects is basically that people feel safe to put out crazy ideas and that they want to collaborate, even if maybe it's not at their personal best benefit. Steve: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm. Stefan: So, so there is a way of thinking and we, we, we talk about abundance thinking and growth mindset. things are becoming a thing in the management world, but somehow the, the construct and the structure, how we set things up, make us fall back into this sort of slightly industrial influence, mechanical way. And I wonder if we now jack ourselves into new ways of working where, you know, an AI can do a lot of things. We, we end up on the defensive, reactive side and a lot of the narrative then becomes, oh, but you know, it shouldn't be just, uh, you know, AI should be like augmented, like we should con control it. And you know, actually humans are the only ones that can really think and be creative and compassionate. So we are trying to do this [00:22:00] deconstructive mechanical thing with ai where we feel comfortable that we understand that. But if you give it a chance to see it much more as a, as a flow or as a fabric where AI is not just augmentation to you or me, and the way to collaborate maybe individually, but Steve: take Stefan: that into the context of how we create experiences. Yeah. And it's part of it. Steve: All Stefan: of a sudden new things become possible and the big question as humans becomes, what would we actually like? When the internet came there, there was a lot of, you know, potential that this would save time what did we do? We work more and, and that's Steve: mm-hmm. Stefan: even. Even if we can theoretically save a lot of time, I think your point on time, well spent time well saved. If we don't have an [00:23:00] intentionality around that and we sort of say, well, we actually want to do something different with the time, we're gonna do different stuff, but we're gonna do more of it. Steve: Yeah. And I think this goes back, well, I think we saw some of this though, right? During Covid because mm-hmm. Or post covid. And I remember the financial crash crash, I think it was 2009, memory service. Right. Um, and I re and, and at that point I, I owned a recruitment company, so I was quite close to the talent market at that point. And I, and I really remember seeing and talking to a lot of people who, particularly in the financial market, who left obviously were made redundant, left with their boxes pretty quickly. Yeah. And in the UK I seem to remember there was a statistic that there was something like 200 and something micro breweries opened up the year after. So what we ended up was a bunch of guys going, actually, you know what, I, I love beer, so I'm gonna go and start making beer. And that was a passion of theirs. And it was kind of a, a moment in [00:24:00] time where people were a, were stopped for the wrong reasons, but stopped and to reflect and to think about the things that are important to them. Now, when Covid of course, hit, there was no stone unturned and globally the huge amount of awakenings that I think that took place. 'cause we enabled the space for us to shake ourselves outta this kind of like systemic environments that we were so religiously in all the time. And I'm wondering, like, AI is disrupting and it will, will continue to, but it's not coming in a negative connotation as much. It's not as, it's not, it's not a, it's not a pandemic, it's a, it's human ingenuity. It's progress, but it's gonna require us to have to go through us. What I think it's gonna require us all to do, get off the hamster wheel again, intentionally and own that ourself in order to think about how do we want this to be. Stefan: Yeah. Steve: It's a [00:25:00] different, it's not being forced on us, if that makes sense. Like it has done previously. I Stefan: wonder if that's how it feels to most people. I agree with you that it could be like that and it maybe should be like that. Yeah. But when, when you look at statistics, uh, 75% of people feel really nervous and concerned and worried about the future of their job. And that's not only ai, it's the, it's the whole context we live in. But, uh, out of all the people that leave their jobs, one third say it's because they don't believe that their leaders are inducing confidence or, you know, inspire them to believe that this is the growth platform they want to be on. And there is a, there's an irony from the leadership side that, and I've seen this many times. You know, you, you, you, you lock yourself in a room with a whiteboard and you think about how to be. Communicate about this and, and communication then is like, we need to tell everybody how we think about it. Um,[00:26:00] and just last couple of days, I've seen a few memos from a, from a CEO that's basically telling their organization, his take on ai. And, and, and so it, it does feel probably to many employees that this is something that they're not controlling that is happening. And I, I think if the, if the leadership team spends less than one day a week intensely learning about AI and, and, and reflecting on what, what do we want to do with it and start radiating that intentionality, It's very difficult. And it, it comes back to, okay, where do you take that one day from? And I mean, I'm just making up one day. If you look at Google 20%, what was a really good model for them? So I think every company needs to find their model. It's not one size fits all. But as a, as a rule of thumb, if you, if you could [00:27:00] start every week with 15 minutes as a, as a leader to just sort of reflect, what did I learn about AI this week? Steve: Hmm. Stefan: And maybe try to make it your goal next week to free up at least 15 minutes of time by that experience. So it becomes a little mini flywheel effect where you say, well, actually the time I'm investing in learning, I'm actually getting it back. And that is easy as pants. I mean, if you cannot get 15 minutes back by using ai, you need other help. But, but the, the tricky thing is to actually do the 15 minutes, and I've tried. I've tried myself many times to do, you know, journaling, meditation, and, you know, go for a walk and think and block that in the calendar. It is not easy to stick to those things, so that's the heartbeat. The 15 minutes is easy, but if you can find that in you to, to [00:28:00] establish the rigor of doing that for six weeks, it, it forms a habit, right? I mean, we know that the 21 day rule, and if, if you can end up after six weeks, maybe with one day where, where you somehow work so effective that you're saving that time and you are instead using it to you, you get into learning by doing or leading, you know, learning by example because the rest of the organization will then see, okay, this is encouraged. And, and, and, the leadership team, they're talking about what they're learning by collaborating with these things. And it almost feels like they're not tools, you know, not that they're not just using these tools, they're actually embracing this as a, as a colleague. That's interesting. So, so we are, we are interacting with this and we are, you know, making sure that AI actually has the context to understand what we are doing. We're putting it in a safe space, we're being friendly to it. There's a lot [00:29:00] of research that shows if you're nice to ai, you get better performance. It's the same with people. So all of a sudden you realize there is actually something in being a good human leader, if you, I, I, I have a workshop where I have five life hacks to be a better leader or more human leader. Steve: And there Stefan: are things like using AI to play a role to challenge your thinking. Uh, you know, using AI to coach you to reflect more, to listen differently. So, so there are all of these unlocks where AI could help you actually intentionally master your human leadership. And by doing it, you actually learn about ai. So I think that is where, where I believe the starting point is. And if, if we, we, we all did that and share those learnings, it would feel like we are actually controlling this destiny. [00:30:00] And I think once you understand it, and you can think about the implications and apply leadership and say, well, hang on guys, I don't want you to feel being watched. I want you to feel actually great about it. And as a leader, I will create the condition so that it comes true. Then that leap that you're talking about happens, and it can happen actually very quickly and so many. Many, so, so latest research, 1% of all the money, all the effort, all the things invested in AI actually results in Steve: It doesn't. 1% does only 1%. Stefan: If you look at organizations and try to find who are the people in an organization that are what I would call future ready. So, so they're very pro productive. They have enough technical understanding to, I mean, you don't need to understand everything, but they understand enough to feel comfortable with it. And, uh, you have a sort of collaborative [00:31:00] growth mindset. Uh, maybe 10, 11% of people are that, and they're extremely committed to help everybody else in the organization. So if you combine those two and you say, as leaders, you sort of learn by example, you actually convert more and more time into collaborating with this new colleague. And you're allowing other people in the organization that are ready and willing to be amplifiers. What you then realize in this next stage is that it's not Everybody has a cool colleague that is always with them. And sometimes that colleague can be the chairman and sometimes can be an intern and they can have different roles at different times and work asynchronous and do stuff that's all great. But all of a sudden that becomes a glue where everybody can collaborate through AI and you know, you and I can develop a script with our little [00:32:00] buddy friends collaboratively over time. And it's not just you have a tool how you prepare your prompts. And I have a tool to think through some talking points, but we actually say, you know, the team has come up for things that are based on your thinking and my thinking and, and we, we start in a different place. Those kind of concepts that will unlock different kind of. Not just productivity, but that we can actually do things where we can really strive. Steve: Yeah. that's Stefan: my, that's my hope that workplace has become sort of safe havens for people to thrive on a whole other level. And that allows everybody then from that place of feeling great and feeling safe and having enough, maybe we take some salary cuts if we want to work in a great environment, but that allows us to then take other decisions and say, well, you know what, I'm gonna do an MBA on the site, or I work three days and two days I work for a nonprofit. Or I'm gonna [00:33:00] do, you know, I go to schools and do mentoring or, or work as a professor on something exciting that, you know, I don't want to do as my full-time job. But that actually is how I learn by sharing knowledge. And I think that's where the really interesting, Steve: Mm-hmm. And, and we've definitely seen, I mean in the UK they've run experiments with four day week. Many companies did that with, with huge, huge success. Um, where, what's the, what's that, what's the model where, you know, we get this kind of new, new thing coming to the shiny thing, coming to a market or you know, an evolution and we have this kind of super high quick kind of, I dunno what the model is where, where there's lots of like frenzy about it. AI was probably the fastest in terms of its yes, go to market. Once the genie was out the box, it went super quick out. Then there's this kind of curve where it kind of matures and then this kind of comes back down. Then there goes and then it goes bit more long tail into a, a more of an adoption and embedding [00:34:00] into the everyday, as it were. How is this different? This feels different for me a bit more, and also with this speed, the speed of this thing, I, I can't help but think of the 90% of people. Mm. Because you and I sitting here today, and I think it's sometimes a bit of a, a privilege to even be able to lean into these things and have the space to do it. Yes. Many people don't. And I think, and, and also just to have a mindset of curiosity. Some other, other people just aren't interested in this stuff and or perhaps are less curious and that's okay. But these are actually, some people actually need it the most. So I'm, I'm kind of also thinking about how do we take everyone along for this ride as well, because it is gonna gonna shift out, it's gonna change Stefan: and I think the, the, the way that I would think about the 90% is sort of in three, in three, or not dimensions, but, um, cohorts or [00:35:00] groups, Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: um, even, even white collar workers in modern companies. You know, if you think about the 75% of people are worried, uh, and concerned. Many, many organizations don't have clarity on what is expected and what is possible, and, and those people don't have a path that is clear to them how, how AI can sort of positively augment their, their work and they're not engaged in the quest of finding out. Uh, so I think what, what, what I see many, many organizations do is either on, you know, on, on a spectrum that they ignore it. And that's probably the worst that you can do, where, you know, 40% secretly use AI tools at work and you sort of pretend you're safe. But [00:36:00] not having an AI policy or, you know, thinking about this inclusive element and, and, and, and sort of equity in that. It is the most dangerous you can do. It's better to set some simple guardrails so people understand what is okay and where to go when you need something else. I mean, as, as simple as that. Then you have blue collar where many companies have struggled with things like health surveys and so on, because they're not sitting on a computer and they work in a different reality in, in, you know, stacking shelves, working in trucks and, and, and, and, and working in a different setting. And you, you could think that they are even further removed from ai, but there, there is actually a lot of potential to make those jobs taken enabled. So one, one cool example I've seen is from Japan where they struggle to find tuna inspectors. I mean, it smells like fish. It's not very fancy. So who wants to be, as a young person, a tuna inspector, and look. [00:37:00] Look, fish up. But if you have sort of cameras and headset and ai, it becomes a tech job. And you get like, you know, statistics and you get help in identifying, you know, the size and different markets. I dunno what tuna inspectors do, Steve: but I just Stefan: love that example that all of a sudden you can reframe a sort of physical labor job to be something interesting where people can get feedback and say, you know, today you did a great job, uh, you missed five tuners, but you know, here, here's what you should look out tomorrow. Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: And so all of a sudden the quality of that experience for for the person becomes better and, and it becomes more aspirational. You get growth and you, you get development and you get collaboration because all of a sudden the AI could share learnings and best practice and give tips and, and have a collective conscience. So if you go to air. to a company that has customer [00:38:00] support teams, all of a sudden, all the knowledge of the company is available and you can change how, how you're working. And then you have everybody else that's not working in a sort of work setting as we are fortunate to be in. And, and they're struggling on Steve: farmers Stefan: markets and on fields and all kind of things. And I think there is one potential if you look at Nairobi and the mobile, uh, leapfrog moment, that when you think about health education and some of these sort of foundational enablers that AI does give, especially with open source, amazing powers. So a bit similar what we've seen with the internet. Democratizing things, allowing education in every village. I, I do think there's huge potential and it could very well be that we are, you know, complacent here thinking about, uh, the other 90% that actually the other 90% are the ones that will completely go for it. And, and we will be sitting here, [00:39:00] you know, watching AI doing our PowerPoints and we don't know what happened. Steve: Yeah. How are you, how, just out of interest, how have you used, how are you using ai? What's been your favorite? Stefan: I'm playing. Steve: Yeah, me too. enjoy, Stefan: you know, leaning in on curiosity, trying things and, and also challenging, uh, so, you know, asking it what, what is the thing that I'm missing? Or, you know, how would somebody completely different think about it? And Steve: mm-hmm. Stefan: Just. and, and, and I really love the collaborative. Uh, thing with it. Um, when I'm in the car, I do brainstorms and it's so nice that you can say, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need to be, I mean, I'm trying to be friendly, but you don't need to be sort of polite all the time. You can just sort of start a new, uh, rant. Yeah. Steve: I always say, please, Stefan: Yeah, yeah, Steve: I'm always polite to it. I, I think it's, um, yeah. I mean, I, I, I've sat, I, I, [00:40:00] the, the, the talking interaction element's super interesting. Uh, I think I've had debates, I've had discussions. I've got this business idea. What do you think? Or, and it, and it is. Yeah. My way is that I like to like, discuss with people and sometimes I have to, in order for me to make a decision, I, I need to debate or discuss and it helps me crystallize and go, yep, cool. Or maybe go in a, a different direction. So I think that's really, it's really helped me on that. It's been really cool. Um, even on this podcast, it's been just, just, you know, and now I have a, a prompt, which we've been refining over time and we, and it has a very, very specific job. You are the senior researcher for the Experienced Designers podcast, and it has a series of prompts and, um, it even finds out that you've failed at your trumpet practice. For an example, I discovered through AI doing its research under some of your Yeah. On some of your time, uh, spare time that you've created for yourself. So it's, I, I, for me it's um. It's, [00:41:00] it's a fascinating and time saving, time well saved that enables me, even my podcast here and the, the team that we have here is like, okay, cool. Like, that enables us to focus on some other things that will help grow the podcast. Um, so yeah, I mean, we get like a four page, like deep research thing back and it's very cool. However, what I will say is that I sit there with a highlights, a pen after. Mm-hmm. And I love the tangibility as an interviewer, as a, as part of your preparation. I, I like, for me, my personal preference, I like to sit with it and then go through, but it's saved me. I mean, just so much time. Stefan: Yeah. Steve: So I think that's a nice, like, simple example, but one that I think took time to experiment with and to get it refined into something that we, where it was bringing super good value to us in our, in our prayer. Stefan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, and I think the, the magical thing for me is the, the sort of collaborative aspect. You know, you talk about your team, you're refining the pro together, and [00:42:00] uh, I think that is going back to experiences as well, that allowing for, for everybody's individual contribution to count. 'cause I think saving time is, is still sort of a reactive concept somehow. Steve: said earlier, Stefan: is a bit intent re really, really thinking about what. What actually counts and what matters and what are we doing here? And, and if you do it right, but, you know, prompting that thing, you, you're framing a lot of your intent into that and it helps you actually stay the course and it, it, it, it, it holds you sort of to Steve: DNA Stefan: of that. But it still allows you to sit with a highlighter pen and, and do your thing. And I think we're be, we're beginning to explore what this could become. So, so to your question of, is this different [00:43:00] in terms of the hype curve of new technology? It's the same as just everything is faster and more extreme and the result is we're completely swamped and puzzled and it's impossible to keep track. And, and, and so we feel a bit sort of underwater, but what is different is that, um, I, if you take a step back, I, I read some research from an Indian economist. That has done a lot of math and found out that the washing machine had more profound impact on humankind than the internet. So, so he is actually done, the numbers and the internet in terms of productivity has not outdone the Steve: machine. Stefan: And the reason is, if you dig in, that it allowed a lot of, uh, women to actually sort of take a huge chunk of time out of sort of a duty that was for whatever reasons allocated to them and, and be available [00:44:00] for other work. That was the reasoning. And so I'm reflecting, okay, so the internet and what, what are we actually doing with our time is also being in Sweden, we are very fortunate that things are more balanced, at least maybe not as balanced as they should be, but, uh, not the same everywhere else. And if you then again, think about everybody, blue collar, white collar. High earners, low earners. There is a theoretical set of doing this sort of rebounds, re rebuild, reframe without, you know, everybody gets basic income. No, I mean, in, in many countries today to have the most important thing as in water, shelter, electricity, and broadband, that that is actually enough available to make it [00:45:00] e equally distributed. What would we then do? I mean, just as a thought experiment. Steve: Totally. Um, Stefan: and there might be some people that are really happy to have less and actually find freedom in that. There's a lot of research that shows their, their thresholds where you know, how much do you need? And actually your worries increase. So it could be the most selfish thing that you do, that you give up wealth. But if you go with that experiment, we would need to let people opt into that. It would need to be sort of the most glorious choice that you make to be selfish and give up your wealth. We're not close to that in, in any way now, but I think sometimes it's good to do that sort experiment to help us focus on what matters and what can we do in the realm that we can control to either contribute, to test it, to share it, Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: and, [00:46:00] and I think that's quite exciting because with this idea that AI can become the glue, it would allow us collectively to, to learn and share sort of positive contributions and still let it be up to everybody to find their recipe. I mean, you can eat whatever you want on your pizza, but we can share it. Steve: Yeah. And, Stefan: And, and so I think that's quite interesting. And, and if we, if we could free up a bit of time to just allow for space for that internationality that you talked about, and somehow as companies become a safe space for people to come together and actually choose how Steve: how Stefan: want to make an impact and that it's, it's, it doesn't have to be mechanistic and that maybe the most valuable things happen from not being boxed in the potential is there more, more than ever. Steve: Well, and also if we look at statistics of engagement data from Gallup, from [00:47:00] forever, I mean, I, you know, it comes around every year and I, and I, I look at, you know, I, I glance, I don't look at it as anywhere near as much as I used to, but the stats are still there. I mean, I don't think it's ever gone above 36% in, uh, the US as an example, something like that. It's never really gone super high. I think UK right now is like 10%. Um, Europe is definitely trailing. Um, it just, it always struck me on a very kind of high level that there wasn't enough engagement. It's always been like, either we're asking the wrong question and we're measuring the wrong things, and we're laboring on this one thing around how engaged or satisfied are people in work, so whether satisfied or dissatisfied. So the question for me was always like. Are we measuring it wrong? Should we be choosing another metric? Because we are obsessing over this every single year it comes out, it's like, oh, you know, this engaged, disengaged, huge proportion, disengaged in the workforce, thinking about leaving in the next year, staying put all these Stefan: different mm-hmm.[00:48:00] Steve: Metrics. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I, for me, going to your point of challenging that, of maybe looking at that in a, in a, from a different perspective, but then also to your point now bringing this in, is this kind of like imagining them, if it is true that we are such big proportions of the workforce is disengaged in their work, then surely we should be thinking very strongly about ai, about how it can change work. Yes. Because clearly it's not, hasn't been working for decades if we're just judging on the engagement stats for the last couple of decades. So it, it's one of those, it's this kind of paradigm that we're kind of Stefan: super interesting because you're right, like we, Steve: and Stefan: ironically, I, I don't see, I mean you've been in this many years and you're very passionate about it, but I don't think that the average leadership team spends at as much headache as you might think on how it is engaged. Everybody is we, we sort of accept that as status quo Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: ' cause it's always been like that. Um, [00:49:00] and I've, I've, I've, I've always looked at this sort of parallel between NPS and ENPS Steve: Mm-hmm. And, struggled I Stefan: mean, it's nice that it's a simple metric, but its not actually what counts. Um, but we can count it, you know, one of those. And when, when I think about my grandparents, Steve: one set Stefan: of them had a farm. They were working brutally hard. The other ones had their sort of watch shop and basically lived on top of the shop and were there all the time. So there, there was no, and this is not long ago, you know, there was no sort of illusion. Well, it's work mate, so just grind it and bring food on the table. That, I mean, that's what life is for. Steve: Mm-hmm. think, Stefan: like you said, we are in an extremely cushy, fortunate position. To even have that conversation is like, well, I mean, why would it be fun to be at work? I mean, you're going there to make money so that then you can have the weekend. [00:50:00] And, and, and maybe we need to dig into that, um, worldview almost to say. What, what is what, what is work? And, and probably there is an element of that where you need to accept responsibility. I agree. Steve: I agree. And, I agree. Stefan: suck it up. And I mean, it's work. It doesn't always have to be fun. But now that we do so much work that is not sort of physical, mechanical production labor, automatically you come in a real, where I, I had, I had this, I had this slide once, um, that was taken with the heat camera where you could see sort of a building having blue and red areas where, and, and I used it as a metaphor for all the bullshit and time [00:51:00] wasted at an average headquarter. And there is a French researcher that wrote a book that is called Bullshit, uh, economy or Bullshit Jobs. And, and his, uh, f was that even if you work as a cleaner in a bank where everybody is doing bullshit jobs, you have a bullshit job because you're cleaning for PowerPoint makers. And so I thought a lot about that in correlation to engagement, that you know, on the one hand people are not bringing their best self to work. They're not striving. They could do so much more. They could be more creative, they could create more value, and they want to, on the other hand, we do all of these activities that have no value at all. And from a customer centricity standpoint, the, the thing that I've always loved is when you have colleagues mostly sort of in a cross-functional setting, sort of have this moment of. Okay. That's why we do what we do. [00:52:00] So, so the purpose where actually even somebody in the finance department or, or somewhere in the organization realizes how they're contributing to something actually really important and meaningful and valuable. And so I, I do believe there is something around organizations finding that purpose collectively and, and sort of really being aware of, yes, we do a lot of things and sometimes you need to do stuff to get stuff done, but ultimately the reason why we exist is, is this and everybody contributes, and then you can optimize, you know how much you contribute. And I do believe if you know why you're doing it, you are more engaged. I, I mean, I really do. Yeah. So if you can foster a setting where from, from that collective purpose, you, you, you prioritize. Uh, what is bullshit and what is not. And you allow people, sort of [00:53:00] agency intentionality in how they contribute. It doesn't mean you, you need to ask all the employees so you know, what do you want? Because that doesn't work. That's where leadership is, is needed to kind of listen, but then also take a decision and set some guardrails and decide, no, I mean, yes, we could do all of these things, but we've decided not to. Uh, and, and I think that's, that's where I think employee experience is a really interesting thing because it has to be curated. It's not just sort of, it is like the, uh, the famous should you ask customers what they want. I mean, you can ask them what you want, but you still need to decide what you can do for them. And I think in, in, in my career, that duality of. How do you empower people to live their, their purpose and how that purpose is connected to value creation for customers, today's customers, tomorrow's customers [00:54:00] anticipating together kind of where things are going and expectations. There is a perfect storm around that, that is not easy to create, but when it is going, it, it, it's going. Um, Steve: You'd mentioned leaders, and I just wanna loop on this a little bit deeper. 'cause it's, there's a lot of, um, oh, there's a lot of pressure on leaders right now, right? Managers, anybody leading people right now on any level. Um. I I, I've definitely seen in the last few years there's been a lot of leadership development. If you're working with leadership development, you should be pretty booked out. Um, and the pressures and the, the, the demands on leaders and managers has just increased significantly. Um, what does a, what does a future leader look like in an AI context? And what are some of the, what are some of the shifts that you think any kind of manager or leader listening to this today should be really thinking about? I know you talked about creating a space on a weekly [00:55:00] basis for experimentation and, and testing ai, even if they are aren't, um, but also in themself as humans because it's, yeah. There's something to be done in there. I think, Stefan: I think, I think it's an, it's a super interesting question that I would look at from two perspectives. Like, you know, what is, what is new that existing leaders should lean into? So how do we evolve leadership? Because I mean, the, the existing leaders aren't going anywhere. But then there is also a new generation of leaders somewhere in the organization Steve: mm-hmm. Stefan: that want to be found and need an opportunity to develop. And, and probably the interesting thing is when you can connect. That and have sort of mentorship and maybe also new ways of running companies. So for example, one, one concept that I [00:56:00] came across that in, in, in some tribal cultures still today, uh, the community is led in two circles. So you have one inner circle of, of, of the people that are now in charge of running their village or the community. And then you have an outer circle of, uh, you know, older generation with a lot of experience sort of whisperers support us backing it up. And I, I really like that nice Steve: nice Stefan: construct that, that, that you have the wisdom behind you and the knowledge behind you, but you're empowered to, to be in charge. It's not the other way around that, you know, the, the, the, the wise group leads and the young ones sort of learn from the back. So it's like a tandem where. Love Steve: Yeah. Love that their Stefan: heart. Uh, pedaling is done by the, by the new leaders, and they have a chance to fail and learn, but they have backup. You know, when it goes uphill, maybe there's a bit more support. And, um, Steve: love that. Stefan: I've, I've done that actually in a few change [00:57:00] programs and it's, it's really amazing to see what happens. So, so you embark on a change. You have the, uh, the leaders that are in charge Steve: Share Stefan: sort of their vision of how they think this should go and why it's important to them personally and why they're committed. So they, they each have a chance to frame it from their perspective. And then you flip the circles and the, the people that actually need to lead that are usually the second in command or the senior vice president, or they actually step in and they reflect what they heard and what it. That to them, where they feel excited, where they feel concerned, where they think like, yeah, I've heard that before. I don't know. And that there's a safe space where that can take place. And they walk back and the the other ones sort of share their reflections or their reflections. And there is something in that mix that happens where everybody has a chance to, to, to put their passion on the table, but also have a chance [00:58:00] to, to lean in on accountability and concerns. And, and so if we take that metaphor back to where your question was like, what, what does more than leadership entail? I think you, you cannot do it in either of the two circles if you're not looking after yourself. Like it's impossible. And I, I guess in covid, everybody has sort of found their way of struggling through that. Uh, you know, whether it was taking walking meetings or make sure you eat, uh, you have pauses. I, so I think everybody in their own way realized you have to take control back on that situation. And maybe some people focused more on, uh, virtual cocktail classes and others focus more on meditation. That that's okay. But Steve: the Stefan: idea of not just letting it happen and role model by, [00:59:00] or, you know, what I call learning by doing to, to, to engage everybody else in your vulnerability to some extent. To sort of also, because I think if you, if you as a leader say, I'm learning about this. I'm not perfect, but I have a view, I have a perspective. I, I am driving for this, Steve: but Stefan: open to feedback and I'm, you know, I'm using, like you said, I'm using AI to challenge Mm-hmm. That opens up. Uh, a, a different space for everybody else to contribute. And, and then in, in a sense, you get to that old quote, you know, if you want to go fast, you go along. If you want to go along, you go together. It's not necessarily always about, you know, who is leading the, the fastest kind of a certain level of sustainability is really important. And I see many of the conversations I have with, with, with, with leaders at different companies that social sustainability is becoming, [01:00:00] you know, super sharp in focus. Steve: Yeah. Stefan: I mean, you know, maybe a bit sad that we let it slide maybe a bit too much on the environmental side of sustainability, but maybe what we are realizing is they can't exist in, in either or mode. And if we want to create a sustainable way of. Operating, you know, positive growth that is good for people and planet and, and still makes sense. We, we need to get the people equation right. It doesn't have to be that now that we're focusing more on social, that the environment is out of the picture. I think they, they need to continue to coexist, but in, in that scenario where we basically say everybody can choose how much they want to work. If you look at the, uh, uh, the sort of blue zone experiment of people [01:01:00] that live healthy the longest, They all have a vegetable garden. That's the one thing that they all have in common. They eat sort of Mediterranean type food Steve: Mm-hmm. Stefan: and they're hands on engage it. I I, I, I have hated gardening some since school, so I'm bit struggling with that, but I, I think the. The idea that we could actually do, go back to basics a little bit on, on some of that, uh, that, that would solve a lot of things. If you think about it, and I mean, I'm not saying everybody has to become a, a, a gardener now, but if, if we could be more physically engaged, not only in our heads, that would solve a lot of things and maybe you need to treat doing the laundry and gardening as sort of meditation. Steve: I, Stefan: I, I often think that when I empty it tumble dryer that, you know, that's kind of me time, [01:02:00] which if you have a family, it's sort Steve: there's a lot to do. Yeah. Stefan: But if you, if you actually tell yourself that it is, it becomes it little bit. Steve: I mean, I think if we're all honest to ourselves, I mean, just the soc ritual is definitely meditative. It has to be. Right. So it's one of those, um, I think, I think, uh, yeah, I think, uh, there's a, there's an interesting one around, uh, ownership. Um, and I think, I think anybody listening should be yeah, really consider about, uh, their experience, their life experience, and how they're grounding and how they are, um, how they're thinking and doing, uh, and how they can be the more intentional around some of those things. So I think it's a, it's a very, very cool core element. Um, so Stefan, let me, uh, ask, how do, how do people reach out to you? How do people contact you? Um. Yeah. How can people connect with you? Where's the best place? Uh, through ai Stefan: Exactly. [01:03:00] Tell, tell your bot to call my bot. Steve: Yeah. No, Stefan: I mean, uh, LinkedIn is probably the, the, the, the easiest thing. Um, Steve: and then also like is from your perspective, is, is there any kind of like closing reflections that we can maybe share to discard, to, to share with the audience of what we've both taken from the podcast today? And if there's anything we can, we can maybe, um, any value or final gifts we can share out to those. Stefan: I mean, I think that your reflection on how we look at engagement linked to what we actually want out of work, and I, I mean, I see this as a collective quest, right? So nobody knows, uh, where this will go. It's not a destiny that's set. Steve: Mm. instead of, Stefan: uh, you know, letting AI do all the thinking and being absorbed with us and them, [01:04:00] and what is, you know, what humans really should do to actually say, well, if, what would happen if we actually team up and allow us to use that time to focus on quality and. Intentionality. I think that's a huge unlock because that doesn't, it doesn't describe the, the recipe, but it, it frees us up to take that deep breath and, you know, collaboratively learn and discover what could be. And I think that's super exciting. And, and I love your push on the other 90% because one, it's important that we look out for each other, um, in all dimensions, uh, so that we don't get in the US and them, Steve: completely, whether Stefan: white collar, blue collar, whether it's, uh, Europe and other, uh, parts of the world. We, we, we need to be more Steve: Open-minded Stefan: than ever before. And I think if you believe that positive is possible, [01:05:00] it might just happen. Steve: Yep. Uh, I just to build on that, the word imagine imagination came out, dare to imagine, um, dare to imagine what a day a four day week would look like for you. Dare to imagine what Friday would look like, or a Monday or whatever. Chosen days, normally Monday or Friday. Um, yeah. But just dare, like, dare to imagine, I think to, to, to sit down with a pad and just an a one pad and a big marker and just sketch. What could that look like? Like try it in a different form than maybe people are traditionally on the computers. Just get into tangibility and play with it. Um, I think that's a nice, nice way, I think to do those kind of things. And I, I, I think for me, I, I, again, just to build on intentionality. I think when you first started, I think some of the elements around just that intentional moment of going, okay, either continuing the same vein in the same, you know, crazy high level pace, or do I actually take a, an intentional [01:06:00] moment to step back and go, how do I wanna reimagine my, and what, what does my mosaic look like? Um, I think that's a really, really nice one. I think people should take that and steal that from you with pride. 'cause I think it's a really nice way of thinking about it. one Stefan: practical thing that, uh. Uh, that I think we, we could, we could use in a, in a, in a meta context is, um, there, there is a nonprofit and a book that goes with it is called Never Search Alone. And I've used that a lot to think about, you know, what is important for, for my next chapter professionally. Mm-hmm. Obviously in context of, of life. Um, and that search doesn't have to be just about career. So, so the idea of, you know, never search alone, team up, learn together and, uh, you know, collectively dare to rethink. I think that is super fun. Um, and maybe that leads us to [01:07:00] rethink a little bit how, how we think about workplaces and, and companies because I think they can be wonderful platforms for people to thrive. Um, and have a lot of positive impact. Um, and it doesn't have to be esoteric. It can be super focused on value creation. And I think that to your point, circles back on engagement if everybody knows what the purpose is, even being selfish could be very rewarding. Uh, but it's a tricky, and, and, and that's to your question, what is modern leadership helping to navigate that Steve: with Stefan: and, and daring to sort of be confident about some beliefs. I think that's Steve: I agree. Stefan: what leadership always was and always will be, is just the, the context is so open and up for grabs. Steve: Yeah. There's a lot for grabs. So I think we'll, um, we'll finish off on Dare to Imagine. There's a lot we can create. I mean, we, we are an amazing species and let's not forget as humans [01:08:00] just how amazing we are. So let's, uh, let's ground in that for a moment and leave, finish the podcast on that, um, on that level. That's amazing. Thank you. But, uh, Stefan, thank you for joining. Privileged to have you on, um, spend this time with you and, Stefan: likewise. That was nice. Steve: thanks very much.