Tina Squire - Through a neurodiverse lens: What happens when we design workplaces for every mind?

[00:00:00] Steve: Why hello everybody. My name is Steve Usher and a warm welcome to the experience designers podcast. Imagine a workplace where every mind, no matter how unique is valued and empowered to thrive. And today's episode brings you a powerful conversation with Tina Squire. A champion for neurodiversity in the workplace. And Tina shares her personal journey of being diagnosed with ADHD and how he opened her eyes to the importance of creating environments where neurodiverse people are not just included but celebrated and supported. And we explore what it truly means to be neuro inclusive, how businesses can break down barriers, embrace diverse thinking, and design experiences that work for everyone, regardless of how their brains are wired. And whether it's the small shifts in hiring practices, or the powerful act of embracing someone's unique abilities. This episode will make you rethink the way we design experiences for all of us. It's all about creating a world where no one is left out and every individual's strengths are harnessed to create something extraordinary. So let's dive in. Tina, welcome to the show. To the experienced designers. [00:01:24] Tina: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:01:27] Steve: Oh, it's amazing. Amazing. So thank you for, uh, yeah. Thank you for sharing your time for this. I think, well, I think an extremely important topic. Um, which of course we're, we're going to dive into. Um, but I just want to ask you a quick question. Cause you are on the experienced designers podcast. So what's your favourite experience that you've had? And you can have any context on that, that you want. And why was it a good experience? [00:01:54] Tina: It might sound a bit boring, but the thing that actually always comes to mind for me, so I live in the UK, right? I've lived in the UK for 25 years, but I am Swedish. And I, uh, there's something about just going home and being in my, uh, in my parents house. And just having dinner with the whole family. My sister lives next door as well. So there's like 12 of us or something. Wow. Yeah. Um, and whenever I am doing, you know, if I'm doing like a meditation or something and somebody goes, Take yourself to a happy place like that's where I go and I think it's just because it's so comfortable and safe and happy and It's that environment where you can just doesn't matter what you say, you're just appreciated and loved and Yeah, again Might sound a bit boring and possibly not an experience either. [00:02:56] Steve: I'm hearing family is very important to your teenage, which is lovely. Um, and you know, it's interesting. Um, I don't believe there is a boring experience. There is only our own experience of anything. So, you know, you and I will have this experience of this podcast right now, and we're having two very different experiences of it. Um, but I love that actually, what you shared there was about something around simplicity and not to perhaps, Um, take for granted those experiences are already happening in life that we just think are normal or not. So, you know, ordinary, but actually they're the ones that are quite often meaningful and drive a lot of connection. And of course, I think I wrote down here as you're sharing that like home. parents, family connections, simplicity, happy place, safe love appreciation. Um, I mean, how, how lovely are those words that, uh, that are just shared. So what a brilliant way to start this podcast for sure. Um, so Tina, can I just ask what is our topic today? What is it we're going to dive into together sharing for the audience? [00:03:59] Tina: Yeah. So, um, my. specialty, if you will, is neurodiversity in the workplace. Um, but coming from, from two angles, really, how people and employees can thrive in the workplace and work with their brains and just, uh, be happy and work at their best. But also from the employer's organization's perspective, in terms of, What they can do, what it takes, um, to be neuro inclusive, uh, but not just neuro inclusive, it'll be inclusivity as a whole because that's essentially inclusivity definition, right? Um, I tend to, I, I specialize in the, the neuro inclusive part of it as well. So that's what we're going to talk about really, I think. [00:04:50] Steve: Great. And can I just ask, just for the audience as well, what's been your kind of roadmap to where you are sitting today with me? I'm sitting in Stockholm, you're sitting in the UK. Um, yeah, what's, what's your background and where you are today? How, how have you ended up doing what you're doing? [00:05:07] Tina: I, I essentially come from corporate and the last two decades, I have, uh, been a contact center professional, if you will. Um, and I've held lots of senior roles across various industries because I was an outsourcing. So you just come across lots of different industries, but in roles, um, operational roles mainly, but also HR and recruitment and obviously in senior leader roles, also covered things like strategy and whatnot. So I've managed. hundreds of people, no, got to be thousands at this point, um, uh, throughout my career. Um, and, uh, yeah, so I, I have a real understanding of the challenges that organizations face around operations, but also, um, recruitment and onboarding and that. Today, however, um, I am a neurodiversity, an advanced accredited neurodiversity coach. So. My passion really lies in, in, um, fostering inclusive workplaces, um, from a neuro, neuro inclusive perspective. Um, I, um, got my own ADHD diagnosis. It's just around the beginning of COVID. So I, uh, that was a bit of a journey, but just discovering and understanding neurodiversity more was such an eye opener for me, uh, in terms of how my life had panned out, no regrets or anything, but it. It was such a mind blowing, um, eye opener and, uh, and it became, quickly became my passion. And this was, I was in my late forties, so, uh, I'd seen all my friends kind of doing all their passion projects and, and, uh, starting companies and I was thinking, well, I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing, maybe this is it. And then, boom, I was like, no, this is it, I absolutely love what I do and I've since studied and trained and, Yeah, I do all sorts of things. I've talked, I talked on international stages about neurodiversity and, uh, but I tend to focus on neurodiversity in the workplace. Yeah. [00:07:23] Steve: So you've, I mean, I think it's super interesting. Um, firstly, you were never too old ever to find on a passion project for sure. Um, can I just ask though, can I just ask a little bit of background? Like what was happening or what was your experience at that time for you to say, I'm going to go and explore a diagnosis was there just to just to understand that trigger point in that moment in which you wanted to explore that and understand that what was kind of what was happening. Yeah. [00:07:52] Tina: I remember this moment. I was actually sitting at this desk because we've literally just gone to work from home in the UK. Um, and. We were setting up a new campaign. So it's all very busy and, um, which is, tends to be a good thing, but I just remember sitting at this desk going, I know what I need to do. I just can't make myself do it. Can't make myself do it. I'm a grown woman and, and I was just sort of paralyzed. I just, and it just felt at this point, like I've done all this training. I have got to a certain point in my career. Um, and I've, you know, done lots of work on myself, and it just felt disproportionate to where I was at. Like, this is just, this can't be right. Um, and my, uh, one of my children at this point also had an ADHD and autism diagnosis. So I didn't particularly feel that maybe I, I had ADHD, but I was just like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go and check. And there it was, and no doubt it wasn't, you know, wasn't like I was kind of on the, on the, you know, just on the cusp or something. It's like, yep, nope. And it just made so much sense. [00:09:21] Steve: And Tina, can I just ask as well, what I heard there, it's really interesting. Um, your environment changed and your habit had changed of work. And then obviously you're put into a room at home. Which I can see you in now every day, which requires for everybody, I think, required a complete shift in, in how we organized ourself, how we disciplined ourself, how we set structure in a different way. Um, all of this kind of disruption environmentally and sometimes as well, the environment creates a structure for us to just go in autopilot to when you go into the office and, and it kind of carries you to a certain degree. How was that something which kind of. with that environmental shift which just suddenly accelerated that perhaps that awareness of like whoa hang on a minute this is this is something something going on here [00:10:11] Tina: yeah yes it was it was more of a hindsight realization to be fair where i got the education around what i was experiencing and i could see that See that? Yeah, of course it was the environment. Of course, I had another factor as well, where I had been drinking a lot of caffeine all of my life, not coffee, actually, but Coca Cola and Red Bull and caffeine pills and all sorts, and I had to stop that about six months beforehand because I had a suspected heart condition. It was one way of kind of. handling it, managing it. So it was an obvious sacrifice to make and I've not, not had caffeine since, but what I've learned in hindsight is that it's a really common way of managing ADHD symptoms, because it's a stimulant and, and it helps us focus. I never knew that. [00:11:04] Tina: So that's not to say here, caveat, that everybody who loves a coffee and drinks a lot of caffeine probably have ADHD, like that's not what I'm saying. But in hindsight, it was, it was an obvious kind of, yeah, the environment changed. Uh, I didn't have some other coping mechanisms like, like exercise as well and, um, getting outdoors and, and caffeine, right. Um, I was just kind of stuck here. Right. Right. My experience in COVID wasn't bad, but there was a real shift in how I was able to make myself do work in particular. [00:11:42] Steve: Amazing. [00:11:43] Tina: Um, yeah. [00:11:44] Steve: Cool. Thank you for sharing that. I, I, I just, I spotted a, uh, something to dive into as you shared that cause I was like, Oh, that's really curious. And perhaps You know, you never know what a listener might be listening into this and think, Oh, hang on a minute. There's some, maybe some similar traits that I've, that I've experienced. Um, so let's, let's, let's, um, let's take a bit of a helicopter view right now. So let's think about kind of the landscape of neurodiversity because, um, for some, it can be a bit of an elephant in the room, both for. companies and potentially individuals. Um, [00:12:21] Tina: yeah, [00:12:22] Steve: I guess just to give a sense of like, what is, what is going on? And I, I don't work with neurodiversity every day. Um, this is your field. Um, so I guess from your perspective, like what's the, what's happening in your, in the neurodiverse world? What's the, some of the challenges and environment that's happening right [00:12:39] Tina: now? Well, and this is partly what makes it exciting as well, to be honest, because there is a bit of a boom, right? Like you say, it's the elephant in the room. Like, let's not. Uh, kid ourselves, there's a lot more talk about neurodiversity. And but it isn't new. So when we look at the landscape, right, it isn't new. It was first referred to in like medical documentation in 1775. There was some mention of hyperkinetic syndrome or defective moral control is my favorite because it's funny. Defective moral control is, was essentially. Some of the, uh, symptoms of a DH adhd. Oh, wow. That's how it was referred to at that point. And then in 1877, there was like a reference to dyslexia, word blindness. And in 1912 there was some reference to symptoms of autism, but again, like the name wasn't mentioned. Mm-Hmm. [00:13:36] Tina: So, so this isn't a new thing. It, it can feel like, oh, why does everybody have. Some sort of, uh, neurodiversity diagnosis these days, but it isn't new, but you'd be excused, I think, for thinking so, because actually that, that There has been an increase, if you look at autism, there's been an increase of 787 percent in autism diagnosis in the last 20 years in the UK. I mean, it is a crazy increase. It's easy for somebody to look at that and go, well, that's just ridiculous, like that can't be true and just dismiss it. So please don't dismiss it because there are reasons for this, right? Because, okay, so 787 percent sounds like. a massive amount. Um, and it's, it's an exponential increase, but is it an increase in autism or is it an increase in diagnosis? And this is where I like to make the left handedness analogy. It's, uh, when you look at the history of left handedness, right? Uh, there is, there was like a study in America from, that went from 1880 to 2000, and there was a 300 percent increase in left handedness in that time. Now, do we think there was left handedness or was it just an acceptance of the fact that this is a neurodivergence essentially right for some people left handedness is natural but there was an increase in left handedness because prior to that, it's, it had been, um, not recognized as such. It has been stigmatized, but both culturally and, um, sometimes it was used sort of hygienically and then in religion and whatnot. Um, and, and now the left handedness percentage has settled at 12%, which is probably, that's been since 2000, like 11, 12%. So that's probably the population Is that so we just don't know about neurodiversity where, where it's really going to settle at the moment. It's like one in seven, um, 15 to 20 percent of other sorts of, um, numbers that are quoted, um, because, yeah, these numbers come from and [00:16:07] Steve: also, and also in that timeline, like two decades. You know, we, there is also another caveat in this as well is population growth and we've had also exponential growth in population. There's more of us now than ever as 8 billion now on the planet. Yeah, [00:16:23] Steve: but I do agree. I think the diagnosis and the awareness of it has absolutely increased significantly out there. Um, Yeah, I think it has. Um, [00:16:35] Tina: and I mean, I think it's probably important to mention here as well that it is, uh, there are other factors as well. So that sort of explains how it can be such a huge exponential increase. But obviously, there are also things like there is an improved and updated diagnostic criteria, there is an increased awareness around with by healthcare professionals, and there's better access to healthcare. Yeah. And most importantly, I think it's actually the reduced stigma. So people are willing to consider it and talk about it. And that's where we have the explosion on social media as it were, but, but all of those things also contribute. Um, yeah, which I think makes, hopefully it makes sense to people. [00:17:22] Steve: My, uh, so both my children are dyslexic. Um, um, And I think what's been interesting with that journey and just generally neurodiversity is, and the challenge I think with it is the level of severity, like there's a level of range of how severe the cases are or how extensive, but then also there's a lateral incentive. There's so many different Elements to the neuro diverse kind of family or family or labeling that we're giving right now because we love labels and compartmentalization and those things. It's quite hard. To give it like, oh, you're a level three of this one over here, which is a level six. It's, it's quite challenging, I think. [00:18:06] Tina: And it's really important that we don't do that. Uh, because, you know, I think we're all comfortable talking about the fact that it's a spectrum. Whether it's dyslexia, ADHD, autism, uh, everybody sits on a spectrum. And, um, but it's not a round spectrum. It's not a linear spectrum. What I like to give people the image of, so try and visualize this, a music mixing board, right? And then you've got all of the different symptoms and, and or challenges that are experienced by, by neuro diversity. So that might be difficulty to focus or concentration, organization, impulsivity, what have you. And everybody, on the spectrum will have different, each one of those will have its own kind of level, um, depending on how high or low the challenge are. So that they might be perfectly fine with time management, but they have Massive issues focusing, and then you have another spectrum. If you move up the music board, you then get these little twizzle the knobs basically that you can turn up and down, and that's like the different environments that we're in as well. So if we are at work or if it's socializing, we're in a learning environment, those are all different environments. And that makes each of those little symptoms as well come at different levels, depending on where we sit. So each person is like a music mixing board and have the various different Um, levers and nozzles kind of turned differently. And I think that's the most helpful way of looking at the spectrum. [00:19:53] Steve: Yes. That makes sense. Really. You see, it makes absolute sense. And I, um, I think the, the, the takeaway with this is it's, it's not as linear or binary as, um, as some think. And. It is extremely individual based, um, and I guess, you know, this, uh, we will get to like the company element, as you mentioned earlier about how companies can adapt to this, but ultimately what was what I'm hearing is there's a percentage of a workforce that requires a lot more kind of attention in the sense of how do we support that huge mix that's in that percentage or with very individual, um, Yeah, capabilities, um, needs, all of these things, uh, to, to support and unlock and, um, and support and guide you. [00:20:41] Tina: I'm going to throw one more thing in there as well, if I may. The, the situationally variable piece, right? Because most neurodiversity is Situationally variable, meaning like you might be fine concentrating when you're at home and not at school or the other way around. Um, um, and that's one of the reasons that a lot of people kind of don't seek a diagnosis, maybe if they're an adult, because they're like, well, I can focus when I'm doing this. Or when I'm in this environment and I can't focus here. So it's obviously not, um, neurodiversity, but actually it can be the very reason it is a neurodiversity because neurodiversity is so situationally variable. [00:21:23] Steve: Yes. I think we're all neurodiverse. That might be helpful to someone out there. I think we're all neurodiverse on some level. Some level somewhere, depending on with all of these factors. Let's walk in the shoes of somebody who is neurodiverse. Like what it was, or what's their reality probably is the question. [00:21:39] Tina: Yeah. So neurodiversity is like a, an executive functioning disorder, if you will. So. And executive functioning isn't exclusive to people with neurodiversity. It's, it's primarily controlled in the prefrontal, prefrontal cortex in the brain, um, which is located in the front of your brain. Um, and it's the area that's responsible for cognitive processing. So it includes things like. task initiation or organizing, time management, um, working memory, um, metacognition, flexible thinking. So, you know, when things change, how we change with them and impulse control, emotional regulation, it's not just the prefrontal cortex, but it's primarily there. And then it collaborates with other places in the brain. Um, and when I say it's not exclusive to people who are neurodiverse, it's Because it's too easy to say, well, I forget my keys sometimes, so does that mean I have neurodiversity? And of course it doesn't. But, um, I like to liken it to, for example, yourself, right? When you are extremely tired or frazzled or, you know, when your kids were babies or, uh, maybe you've just moved house and that sort of thing. Like How does that affect your ability to regulate your mood when the kids are playing up? You know, what's, what's your experience in that situation? I'm asking so you can answer. Yeah. [00:23:20] Steve: Oh, well, I mean, I think I can hardly remember it because I think it was so challenging. My brain deleted those memories on purpose. Um, but what I recall, I just remember being shattered. Um, absolutely shattered and it was, especially when the second child came, um, that, that first year of two children is a real pinch. Um, but yeah, I just remember, yeah, like long day at work, just shattered. Yeah. And [00:23:49] Tina: what does it do to your ability to like, Regulate your emotions or, you know, be nice to your wife or, or just like think reasonably at work. Like what's the solution here? [00:24:02] Steve: Yeah, I mean, it's, um, yeah, I mean, of course you're a lot shorter. Um, you're a lot more stressed emotionally. I mean, everything becomes quite a big thing at the time. Um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's an interesting period that I. have vague memory of for sure, for sure. Yeah. [00:24:20] Tina: And that's the, so, so when you're having, um, issues with your executive function, that is very often what life can be like. Again, depending on what your music mixing board looks like, right? You might have a difficulty remembering things, uh, to regulate your mood. To, to focus, um, and to quell your impulse control, and what have you. Um, now for neurotypical people, um, then it's easier to just have a good night's sleep and kind of snap out of it, if you will. And with neurodiversity, you just, you don't snap out of it, right? Obviously, there are things, I don't, because like you, I don't like to make this a, a misery kind of, um, picture, because it isn't. But. It's important to understand the challenges and they, and all of those, they can be worked on as well, obviously, they can be, there's medication, there is a lot of self care stuff that you can do, you know, I mentioned going outside and exercise was things that I realized in hindsight, um, when they were taken away, had a massive impact. Um, impact on how I was able to perform or make myself do things as it were. Coaching is another one of course. Um, but, um, with, So if you're neurodiverse, you have to really kind of focus on making sure that you have things in place that support you in those areas. Those are the things that that can help you manage neurodiversity better as an individual, which is why when people say, Oh, I don't need a diagnosis. It can really help. Well, it can have a lot with the feeling of just shame around what your experience. Um, but also, uh, it can also help you then channel and look for strategies and solutions that are supportive of your situation. [00:26:20] Steve: Yeah. And I think the strategy, the strategies are interesting. Um, my wife is quite severely dyslexic and also Swedish. Then obviously writing and speaking in English, she probably writes better now in English than she does Swedish, but her life saviour in all of this being in, you know, large music industry was two key things for her, like, you know, kind of senior level, but you know, role was number one, having the right team who understood. Her as a leader of where, where she had those challenges, particularly with writing and some of the writing and some of the words are actually quite funny at times, the way she says certain things. So we, you know, you make light of it without, you know, um, making her feel bad about it, but just, we do have a joke, um, But also as well, like technology, like Grammarly, uh, for an example has been for her, like apps and it's got only got better, of course, recently with AI, but it's been an absolute lifesaver for her. So it's really interesting around getting an understanding in your, in your team. So people go can support you. So particularly if you're doing presentation stacks and they notice there's a, there's a Nina. There's a Nina, uh, comment in there or something that's been Nina ized, um, that they can support that in those situations. And of course, like more recently with tech. So I think that, that it's been her way to hack around it in her way, uh, in order to deliver and do her work. Um, so yeah, I love those strategies. [00:27:51] Tina: That's a great example though. And actually It also points to my kind of my own personal journey in my corporate roles, because obviously I kind of go, Well, how did I get to where I got to? Because I was a senior leader by the time I left and considered, I think, quite successful. Um, And some would argue that you can't be successful if you're neurodiverse, which is obviously complete and utter nonsense, nonsense, indeed. Um, but similar to your wife, I, I naturally had a lot of people around me who would go, Oh, you're good at this. So we'll let you do this. Or, um, it wasn't so much. Go like this is your job description and this is what you have to do. I was just lucky I think that people around me Wanted to see my talent and wanted to put me in situations where I could do well And that has been I'd say the backbone of my how I got to where I got to in my career. And I see that a lot in my clients as well. Like some people have that in their work and some do not. And therein lies very different struggles. And I think that is very much the opportunities for employers and organizations. [00:29:20] Steve: I totally agree. And If we look, uh, there's actually an organization in the UK that was created and run by Kate Griggs, uh, Made by Dyslexia, uh, I've mentioned in a previous pod before, and I followed Kate's work literally when she started Made by Dyslexia, and, It was fascinating because when you start to realize like, you know, obviously there's the, there's the classic Richard Branson, who is a huge advocate of, of, um, of dyslexia, uh, obviously being dyslexic himself. And obviously in his recent, I think documentary, he talked about, uh, somebody saying rich, you know, with numbers, particularly as finance director was saying, Richard, do you know the difference between like gross and net profit? And he was like, No, no, no idea. So he took him, this is in a board meeting, and then he took him out of the board meeting explained with, I think, using a fish analogy with a net as this is your net, this is your net profit goes, got it. Um, but his, he, his strategy though, was he knew what he was good at, and then he hired people around him. To support and with who are good at what they're doing. He was a master at that, at that stakeholder creation. Um, and the other really good story to share as well was Kate, uh, Kate, uh, no, Kira Knightley. And she was, I think the story goes is that when she receives her scripts. She couldn't read them because they were bouncing around the, um, around the page severely. And it was a simple, um, and my, my children had this test. It was fascinating where you put these glasses on, but they then changed the different tints, colors of the lens. And if you get that right, all of a sudden in Kira's case, um, it basically she could read and, um, it stopped the bouncing just by having a colored lens. So fascinating, like different, just so many different angles to this, uh, uh, of, of coping mechanisms or support tools that are available. Um, but these are like, you know, famous, very successful people. Um, and I think history's told us that. So many of successful who we deem successful people in our society, um, definitely have some neurodiverse aspects to them. [00:31:35] Tina: Yeah, no, completely. And that, and it just highlights in both those cases, just to recognize what people need in order to do their best work. And I think we'll come back to that. Again, again. And it doesn't just apply to people who are neurodiverse, right? Like you want to hone the talent that people have and, and, um, try and find ways, best ways for them to work. You know, some of your examples there were kind of, yeah, get other people to, to do the other stuff. Um, and it's great that we have people like Richard Branson and Keira Knightley and other celebrities, both in business and, you know, in life. More classic celebrity, I suppose, uh, who talk about it. I think we need more people in organizations in particular and that kind of not just the senior people who kind of already arrived as it were, because obviously it's easier. I'm not saying they shouldn't obviously talk about their journey. That's great. But more, um, representation, uh, in kind of the middle layers, I think would make it so much better for so many people. [00:32:49] Steve: Like anything, I mean, I, I, I, you know, I've been saying this recently to some companies with like some employee onboarding projects is. You know, how you support people through hiring into onboarding into your organization, that's even before like post, like kind of passing your probation and into months and years of, uh, at a business. Um, one thing I think we can all agree on here is that the external talent market has shifted massively and swung in so many, I mean, I've been in recruitment since, dare I say the nineties. And. I think in the last five years alone, I don't think I've ever seen so many swings just in terms of talent shifts turnkey to shifts in talent, you know, the great resignations, all of these things, much more challenging to find certain specific skills, um, and competencies. I don't believe that's going to get any easier. I think it's only going to get harder to find talent. Then we, on top of that as well, Tilly, we're seeing a huge uprise in a much more liquid workforce with solopreneurship, um, where people I think are going to be plugging in and out way more into different projects and works. Uh, I think there's a stat somewhere like 50 percent of the talent will be, um, contract, I think it is, or something non perm. Um, so that's immense. So, and then on top of that, we have. Neurodiversity. We have all of these things. So I'm just curious to kind of see, you know, organizations that demands on organizations. to become much more liquid and adaptable to those talent groups that are coming into their organization and less siloed and less structured, I guess, in a way. What, what's your perspective on that, uh, on that adjustment that's needed, um, by businesses? Um, [00:34:48] Tina: Well, and I think this is what you're saying as well. Like it's, it's an opportunity. It can easily be listened or heard as a, Oh my God, there's so much to do. And we have to put this in place and that in place. But actually it's an opportunity and a lot of the, the, the things that you would. Maybe consider or look at or, you know, strategies from a company perspective are, well, a, they would, would be helpful to all employees, not just the neurodiverse community. Um, and a lot of them are not very costly either. Um, So I mean, what's my view on it? It's absolutely an opportunity. There are benefits here, right? So firstly, we're talking about, um, 15 to 20 percent of the workforce who are neurodiverse. So I haven't met an employer who doesn't want to increase their talent pool. By, you know, 15, 20 percent be great, right? Or finding people who are maybe better matched to what they are looking for. So, um, that's part of the opportunity. But there's also some research around, um, elevated productivity. So there was a case study by JPMorgan Chase that they had an initiative around autism at work and they found that this workforce made fewer errors and they were 90 to 140 percent more productive. than neurotypical employees. Um, and this kind of, there was a Deloitte, um, there was a Deloitte study as well that showed an increase in, in profit, essentially, I haven't got it in front of me now, but it was, yeah, literal, they could tie it back to an increase in profit. Because these things come down to also on the bottom line, like it can comes down to retention and employee engagement and a better culture for everybody, which again comes back to retention and productivity and efficiencies. Right? So there are studies around problem solving and innovation and. Yeah, it, it leads essentially to profitability. So that's my take on it. It's an opportunity. I'm not trying to make you do something because it's the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do, but there, there's so much more to it. That should be very, very interesting to organizations. [00:37:21] Steve: So one of the, one of the things that I mentioned it there with onboarding, but let's just go a step back, a step back up, up the funnel as it were into like hiring, because I think this is also, this is, this for me is, you know, yes. Once you land into an organization, how you foster inclusivity, how you foster support mechanisms, those kinds of things. Um, but the road in can be really challenging because, you know, I've done a lot of work with candidate experience. And I, I think my overall opinion. And I might get shot down for this, but I actually just don't think companies care. They don't because they're not a cop. It's not a cost. And they, until they get into the business and they're into their onboarding, yes, there's more investment in onboarding. Um, I just don't think companies care less. I, I think they, they don't. Based on candidate experience, based on when we're going through moments when there's lots of people, you know, coming out, obviously through redundancy cycles, you tend to see a huge nosedive, even more so in candidate experience, and then organizations try to kind of combat some of that by putting systemization of different, you know, uh, selection tools in place that are perhaps Just restricting or completely ignoring neurodiverse, um, talent pools, um, because it's just square peg round hole. Um, what's your thoughts on? [00:38:44] Tina: So I think just looking at what it would actually take to include a neurodiverse talent pool. a talent pool when you're advertising or what have you. Um, it might answer some of the questions around why we should do that. So, I mean, the first thing you would do is really provide, um, look at your data, look at what you've got already in a company. And lots of people will then say, well, we don't have data, but you have some data and some of it will pertain. And this is where you might want to consider as well. Do you have the skill in the house to actually look at this and address this? Or do you want to go, um, outsource to experts like myself, for example, to kind of looking at these initiatives and how we can do better. But when we're looking at. attracting neurodiverse talent. We're talking about very simple things like using concise language in advertising. Avoid jargon and idioms and expressions because they require a little element of interpretation. So you're just kind of removing that barrier, um, and outline the hiring process. What is this actually going to look like? Like paint a picture of the journey, uh, that can really help as well and offer accommodations. And by that, I mean, just, you don't know what people are going to need, right? You don't know if they need extra time. You don't know if they need materials in a different way. So what you need to do is just say, we're open to considering accommodations. It's just, we're happy to provide reasonable adjustments throughout the recruitment process. Please let us know if you, if you require any accommodations, like that's all you have to do. Um, so, so far, none of this is, is costing any money. Um, And, uh, the other thing is just like, don't throw the kitchen sink at your job adverts. So if you're, I was looking at an advert the other day for a data analyst, and I had all sorts of things about need to have experience of managing senior stakeholders. And it just seemed really disproportionate to what the role actually was and how much it was paying. So I understand that those things can. Be desirable sometimes, but sometimes, you know, we know this from recruitment, like we just include it for the hell of it. We just put it in. [00:41:14] Steve: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:15] Tina: Why not? And neurodiverse people are really good at just scanning job adverts and going, I can't do that or that bit is not me. And then just like not applying because of it. So just have a little think about what you actually need for, for this particular role. Um, to make sure that you get the right sort of talent. So none of that is It's costing any money, right? [00:41:43] Steve: This is super interesting on the adverts because, um, there are some, I think there are Textio, I think is one. By the way, I'm not sponsored by any of these companies I mentioned in this pod, but I think it's Textio. But there's, there's a, there is a tool that will scan job adverts and say whether it's kind of male focus, female language. I don't know how far it goes into neuro diverse, virgin language. Um, but there, you know, job descriptions and the way we advertise our jobs has been a long in the, long in the history of discussion, um, because it's, it's words and it's crafting those words in order to, quite frankly, maybe from an employer brand point of view is to repel the many and attract the few and to, be very clear about what people do and don't want, um, and who is it for, who is it not for, just as much. Um, but also as well, like, I, I, I'd love to know how many people have actually crafted a job advert specifically thinking around neurodiverse audience. Um, I don't think it would be a huge amount, um, just So I think there's a, there's definitely a point in there and don't forget those words are basically what people make pure decisions on anyway. Um, so yeah, I, I, I agree. I think the thing is going back to your sharing of your experience at the beginning. This thing doesn't have to be extraordinarily huge experiences or moments that are like, you know, wow, wow, wow. Amazing. It's actually just getting the basics in and doing it well. Um, and the simple stuff can actually create the best experience. [00:43:25] Tina: Um, so I love that. I love I did actually try and look at at sort of well, how many companies are really trying to be Um, inclusive and, and this wasn't particularly a big survey, but there were, they surveyed recruiters and 69 percent of them acknowledged that. There were barriers in the recruitment process for neurodivergent candidates, but only 7 percent of those recruiters had actually received any training or guidance on it. And there's, these are people who recruit like for a living. So I think that's pretty stark, but also again, it shows the opportunity there is here. [00:44:01] Steve: I agree. I totally agree. And I think that in terms of the selection process, I think hiring manager, recruiter, training, is, is required, um, and invest, and there is going to be an investment required in that, um, but a lot of this is also awareness. Um, just that awareness is a very, very strong start point. Um, and also, you know, if we think about hiring managers themselves, I'd love to do a statistic on how many companies actually proactively train their hiring managers on how to interview properly, um, Um, you know, who teaches this? Um, so there's a lot of work to be done on that side. Um, how about what, what else can organizations do, Tina? What's, what's some of their kind of the, the practices organizations could do when, when people are in the organization? Uh, what have you seen from your experience, uh, on this side? [00:44:58] Tina: So there are loads of things and I think this is where I think you talk about this as well is, is you have to kind of assess where you are at the moment. Um, it sort of comes back to what I said about, have you actually got the skill in house or can you train somebody in house to do it? Have you got the resources and the knowledge? Um, or do you need to look elsewhere? But in terms of sort of high level stuff you can do, obviously, you should review policies and procedures to make sure that they're inclusive. I don't tend to recommend that you do separate policies, because as we've seen, Culturally, I think like there are more things that crop up that we have to take into consideration as employers. So I think it's more important to kind of make sure that we are inclusive in the policies that we have and look at that from a neurodiversity perspective. Um, there are, there's obviously recruitment and hiring processes and things that we can do within there, but training. Hiring managers seems like a really good place to start, uh, and understand what it is that we need to put in place in order to make that, um, journey, uh, better. But workplace culture and the environment. So there's loads you can do there. There are, um, Obviously accommodations in terms of environment. There's quite a lot you can do there, but there's a lot you can do doesn't mean that you as an employee can do it all. So it's easy to say, you should have quiet spaces and stand up desks and but all of this is relative to your ability and finances. Um, I think, uh, the way that we do it is quite frankly, as an organization as well, it doesn't all have to cost money. If you don't have quiet spaces, noise cancelling headphones can do the trick. But there is a lot in the environment. And there's also things like buddy systems or mentors for maybe neurodiverse employees coming in. That can be really good from a perspective as well that they are a peer rather than a senior. So asking. Stupid questions is what, which are never stupid, but might feel like it. Um, but actually that's what you want to make sure that an employee can do is having that space of asking, asking questions. Um, the employee, uh, resource groups as well. So having, creating communities. not just for neurodiverse, you know, we, we see this, um, a lot now with employers, right, where they've got, um, sort of queer, uh, resource groups, and they have, they do, some people that I work with do have neurodiverse resource groups as well, and there's other diversity sections that have their own. And it is important. Representation is important. Community is important. And all of that can really help having an inclusive culture. And reaping those benefits that we talked about earlier as well. [00:48:06] Steve: I agree. If you're sitting here today in an organization that hasn't done any work on this topic, I mean, just take a moment, even on the statistics you shared, like 15 to 20 percent of your existing workforce, so if you're a thousand You're talking 150 to 200 people currently sitting in your business who actually are either aware and hiding it or not aware and might be struggling in some ways and or aware and everything in between, I guess. Where it's, it's kind of saying, okay, so how do you a support that and say, right, there is a 20 percent or let's do an assessment on based on our workforce currently. Um, and how to support those in a, in a much more meaningful way. Maybe it becomes more productive if we wanted, that's an desired outcome, or just maybe that individual gets a, you know, experiences work in a much more. Meaningful connected way. They feel more supported. They're able to do their best work and that's often also enough as well. Um, there's this, um, what was it? Yeah. There's this amazing example, and I can't remember the name of the architect company. It's a British, famous British architect firm, and they proactively recruit dyslexics into their business. And. I don't know whether that's also being, I don't know. Anyway, the reason behind it is, is that they're able to see things in a 3d way better than like others, and they're able to connect with that way of work. So my challenge in any business is look at the type of work that you have. And what, what are some of those tasks that might be more architecture focused or maybe technical focused and how are you supporting people in those environments to really unleash and really connect into what they're doing? Um, and their capabilities. Yeah. [00:50:09] Tina: Yeah, no, I think you're, there are definitely. companies who do have initiatives, specific initiatives to include neurodiverse candidates and make sure that they attract them, whether they are dyslexic or autistic, um, and, and, uh, or other neurodiversity. Um, and they, they don't tend to advertise obviously for autism or dyslexia, but they, they, it comes back to those executive functionings and, and the skills really. that you are looking for. Uh, because there's a yin and a yang here. There are strengths. We, we talk about, I don't like to talk about superpowers in neurodiversity because I, it, the experience is often not that with individuals, but there tends to be specialisms. [00:50:56] Steve: Tina, I love it. Any kind of closing Recommendations or reflections that you like to share just out to people like getting started or just, or even resources, actually, you might have [00:51:07] Tina: in terms of top tips, I was thinking about this, actually, because I think, I mean, we talked a bit about employers and you need to look at where you're at, but I would say looking at those inclusive hiring practices, just questions of what it is that you're actually looking for. Um, And make sure that that is and whether that's in an advert or whether that's in a screening interview, you know, know why you're asking that question. I just look at what is needed for inclusive hiring practices and ensure that you communicate. Effectively and with accessibility in mind. So that's things like, are we only writing emails or are we providing audio and video? Or, you know, can we provide information, um, in lots of different ways? Can we really? helpful as well. And ask all of your employees, how can you get the best out of them? Not just in neurodiversity, but you will include neurodiversity in that. Uh, and then you will make sure that you catch anyone who is diagnosed, who, somebody who, who, who doesn't want to tell you that they're diagnosed and somebody who is, you know, doesn't know that they're neurodiverse at this point, because there are still a lot of us who, who don't know. Um, so by asking everybody what has them work best and what they need, tools you've mentioned, strategies we've talked about, you know, what could be helpful. And for employees, I'd say, The job is kind of, well, try and figure out what it is that makes you work best. And that isn't always easy. And for that, I have a resource actually. So on my website, I have an ebook, which is literally called how to thrive with ADHD at work. So it's, it's focused on ADHD because I'm a certified ADHD coach, but. it absolutely would apply to a lot of neurodiversity. Um, so you can download for free. Um, and, uh, there are sort of little exercises in there as well that might help. Um, clear that up in terms of what works for you. Um, yeah. [00:53:32] Steve: Thank you so much. I really appreciate, uh, you coming on the show and yeah, just stepping out there, sharing and, um, sharing your journey. And I'm really grateful for, uh, for learning more about you. [00:53:44] Tina: Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. As you can tell, I do like talking about these things. So any opportunity, I'm there. Amazing. [00:53:52] Steve: Amazing. Thank you so much. And that's it for today's episode. Remember, designing experiences isn't just about products or processes. It's about people. And Tina reminded us that when we understand, include, and celebrate neurodiverse minds. We create workplaces that are not just effective, but also deeply human. And if this resonated with you, be sure to share it, subscribe, and keep challenging yourself to think differently. And until next time, let's keep designing for everyone one extraordinary experience at a time. Until the next time, bye for now.