Tom Hitch - Co-create or coerce? Why the best office experiences are built with their people

Steve: [00:00:00] Tom, welcome to the experienced designers. Tom: Hey Steve, I always like doing these as a guest, um, because I already know how you're gonna have to figure this, this whole show out, so I'm looking forward to being part of it. Thank you. Steve: Yeah, look, thank you so much. And I'm really, really curious to dive in, on this topic today, which is, uh, very much centered on, uh, on, on the workplace itself and the workplace Tom: Mm. Steve: Um, so I'd like to just start, actually, I think a good place to start is probably one that's a little bit more like contentious out there. I think, Tom: Okay. Sure. Steve: in terms of, look at like what's on socials or LinkedIn, anything that gets a mention in re in regards to, mandating people back to the office, the three, the good old three, two models, Tom: Mm, Steve: It gets a lot of engagement. A lot of people have an opinion, um, on this, both in terms of their own experience, but also from a business perspective. Tom: yes. Steve: what's your, uh, what's your perspective on that? Tell me a little bit [00:01:00] on that, on your, Tom: Um, I mean it's a massive, it's a massive topic and that's, I do a sort of a sharp, well, a, a long exhale really, um, before going into, I think it's so divisive and obviously you've said that it does get a lot of engagement. I think largely that stuff can be overwhelmingly negative. It's probably is to say the least. I think from my side though, like sometimes it's important to hold opinions that are not necessarily the most popular opinions, you know, sort of, I think the easy thing to say is like, no, we don't need to go back into the office and you sure we'll all be able to work from home. The other side of that is people say, well, of course you're gonna say that you should be in the office 'cause that's what you do, that's what you talk about. But I think for me, that there is, there's a big difference in terms of like policy. If we're talking about policy, whether it be hybrid or work from home, or whatever you wanna call about, that there is this kind of like set of rules and or this guidelines that people are expected [00:02:00] to, to obey or play by. And I think that it, it has become very easy to criticize what these companies are saying. Whether there should be five days a week or three days a week, or one day a week, like whatever that is, that really, typically it's an RTO policy if you're asking people to come back for any point of time. Um, I personally think that we should have policies, guidelines, rules. I don't necessarily agree with a, a, a forced mandate, but at the same time, like I don't know how businesses communicate this to. The global workforce to a, you know, particular market. Like, there, there has to be this moment of communication to create clarity. And I think that's definitely the side that I've gone down with it in, in terms of like, talking about it or indeed visiting my own posts or any of the visits that I have with, you know, global heads of real estate and, and workplaces. Just trying to understand like what it is that they're doing. And look, [00:03:00] I understand why they're unpopular. I understand that people don't wanna come back to the office. I understand that there's barriers, right? There's barriers to being, whether it's your commute or your kids or your dog, or just life in general, right? I think that I get all that, but yeah, I dunno. I think that there's, there's a really healthy place if you can be in the office two to three days a week, I think that's really healthy. Um, and I, I think that I. The mandate side to specifically answer your question on that side of things, I don't think is good. 'cause I don't think it gets buy-in. I don't think it makes people feel good about where they are. It takes away the element of choice. But at the same time, I do think we need them. Um, if we are gonna kind of, well, not to say we, I don't think, I think businesses need them. I think businesses need them if they're gonna communicate what their expectations are of their staff and that, that's really kind of how, how I'm looking at them. Steve: Yeah, no, that's, that's fair. And I think, do you [00:04:00] perhaps think that it's also sometimes about the, how organizations have gone about this as well? I mean, we've seen so many examples. Like Spotify for me is probably up there with one of the more, um. Profound ones that went out super early Tom: Mm-hmm. Steve: anywhere your adults. Tom: Yeah. Steve: that was kind of reinstated again recently with, um, with the CHRO and, so, you know, I think that one that gave clarity so, so early people were looking at that as this kind of mandate that gave clarity to workers immediately. And then we've seen other ones where it's been very kind of, you know, fist on table demanding, um, staff to come back. In terms of this kind of how and this engagement and also just to layer another question onto this as well, is this moment in time where maybe there is opportunity to co-create with people a little bit more about what it could, you know, how can we envision the future together? Tom: Yeah. Steve: what's your, Tom: Yeah, I mean I think, I think it's really difficult because obviously like all good [00:05:00] answers, it depends. It depends on where you work. It depends on the type of role you have. It depends on your seniority. Like I think there's so many factors that come into it, and I think that you can argue that RTOs, these mandates are lazy. But as I say, I think it's a really difficult thing to make an effective communication or policy where people understand what's going on. And obviously you talked about the, the Spotify example. You know, there's, there's various that are kind of like the two ends of the spectrum, right? Some that are like super flexible, you know, work anywhere, be whatever you wanna be, be away for six months, et cetera. Others that are like, it's five days or bust. And I think, you know, you, you picked off or used the term about, about clarity. And I think that either way, either way the policy falls, you, you, you know where you stand. And I think for that is better than not knowing where you stand, even if you disagree with the policy, because at least it gives you the information to make decisions. Um, and look, to be honest with you, I [00:06:00] don't know how this fully ties into day-to-day experience, but my understanding of experience with these things is that people are always gonna want that level of choice. They're always gonna want that level of involvement. But to carry that out effectively when you have got even like a, a big business, but not, not like a ginormous business. If you had like 20,000 global workers and you were trying to co like communicate and coordinate what was going on, you simply cannot ask every single person, what is it you would like to do? How would you like to work? How are you most effective? Ideally, yes, you would know that, and there's probably ways of kind of mapping that out, but you know, it becomes a massive task. So I think ideally the communication is clear, it's consistent. Um, and I think you, you are always, you, let me rephrase that. You're never gonna be able to please everyone. So there's, there's been some many examples of when I've been to offices, slightly different in terms of, it's more about the [00:07:00] features of offices that I've, I've gone to see and as a client, we saw the other week, uh, in, in Amsterdam, and they were saying how in one of their offices, which is. Kitted out specked really highly. Um, this was for their engineers, so I don't, I probably, I probably can say that it was for their engineers, you know, very, very prized assets within, within that business. They had pretty much the best of everything in their portfolio, but they complained the most because they had this. And so it was like, well, I want this coffee machine, or I want this to be in the office and I want this. And actually it was in their like, less good environments, let's call 'em that, that people were just kind of like getting on with it and just doing what needed to be done. And I think slip it the other way around, you know, would, would that just be the same thing? And actually you can give people everything that they want, but it's some, I dunno if it's like a letter of two evils or if that's a bit extreme, but like as soon as you start telling people, okay, cool, don't come into the office. Then what happens? Like it's almost like controlling that because that's the thing that people can understand. [00:08:00] But I think it's really, it's a really difficult one because it is so unpopular, and I think it does come down to opinion, and I think people can just be in touch with their opinion. I don't wanna say that one thing is right, one thing is wrong. However, I do think there are better ways of communicating certain messages than just saying, you have to do this. Because our natural response to that is like, whoa, no thanks. I'm gonna go do something else. Steve: So I mean, I'd love to like, with, with this kind of disruption that's taken place, I mean, a lot of habit form, uh, know a lot of habits that we formed completely broken, and then we're trying to form, well, we've formed new habits and then we're trying to adjust those habits sometimes back to how it was before, but also Tom: Mm Steve: Um. I'm just curious and I, and, and just to kind of dive a little bit more into your work and Yeah. What you are being Tom: sure. Steve: to. So Tom: ~Yeah. Yeah.~ Steve: what are you seeing in terms of some of those shifts and the dynamics that have shifted when we've thought about the workplace? And obviously it's a lot of, it's kind of been mapped on this [00:09:00] first place, second place, third place, you know, these kind of first home, Tom: Mm. Steve: third, the Starbucks as it were. Um, coming from those lenses, how are you seeing the, the shifts since the pandemic, um, around workplace, um, in terms of where it fits and how it's evolving? Tom: Yeah, I mean, how long have you got? I mean, it's the, the workplace obviously has changed a huge amount and there's like no secrets about that. Like I think everyone knows that, like we've all experienced that in whichever capacity we use the office. Now we know that that's changed, but I also don't wanna come and sit on here and just repeat loads of stuff that loads of other people have talked about previously. And I think. The, the best way of kind of talking about it is just from examples that I've seen, um, on my travels. So this year I've been fortunate enough to go to different parts of the world. Um, I mean, admittedly not like super exotic, but I was in, I was in Dublin early this year, obviously based [00:10:00] in London. Uh, I was recently in Amsterdam. And even in those markets, just seeing how companies do things differently and how they engage their workers and what's working and what's not, you know, I think that's, that's where it becomes so tricky is that there is no off the shelf right answer and you can go to one company within the same sector. Let's pick on tech because a lot of the companies that I, I work with are tech based. And you go to one and they say, yeah, we put on all these events. We, you know, they have a really nice office. For example, this is over in Dublin. They have a lovely office. They put on loads of events. Um, they really struggle to get people into the office now. There are a few reasons for that, but one of the big ones with that was that, I didn't know this, but apparently the, the public transport network in Dublin is dreadful. And so it actually just makes it really difficult for people to get in, but then also out again. And so that is a massive barrier. So then wanting to come back into the office because, you know, they've maybe moved a [00:11:00] little bit further out of Dublin. Um, they're, you know, a bit further away now, so that becomes a physical barrier. However, conversely in London, another tech company, not the same company, but uh, another one in the sector, they say, yeah, we don't have a policy. We, you know, people will just kind of come in three days a week. It's kind of managed by teams, um, and, and management within those teams. And that works really well. You know, we have, you know, de okay, occupancy levels are not massive, but they're at a consistent level. They're managing those, they're kind of tracking what's going on and you know, for all intents and purposes, they're happy with what they're seeing. So I. It, it's so difficult to kind of say this has happened or this has changed. And I think beyond the obvious of like people want a better work life balance and you know, some people are, some sectors they have to be in the office, others don't have to be in and there are lots of different, different rabbit holes. But I guess like the biggest thing is, is the experience level. I think that element [00:12:00] of experience has really gone up or has indeed had to go up. Whether it's gone up across the board as a level, possibly not, but there are things now which are in like much better and much more considered than ever before. I mean, again, this is like a super basic example, but I think probably does give a good sort of reference point for the, where we are in the, in 2025 of, um, I was in an office, I. Well, actually no, I, this has happened quite a few times recently when I've gone into offices. Uh, you can smell the, there, there is a smell, there is a scent. In the same way if you went into a, a high-end retail or even like a hotel, for example, and I've almost got to the point now where I don't bother mentioning it because I'm like, I'm just so used to it. But I also know that the people that own that space have done that quite intentionally. And so I do try and force myself to make a point and say, oh, you've got a brand scent. They're like, oh, how do you know? Like, yeah, [00:13:00] we have this and we made this. And it's like, obviously they know that. They know. I know 'cause I can smell it. But a lot of companies now are. Very intentionally creating brand scents. And this is probably typical, more typical in like coworking, um, where across their portfolio of spaces, whether it be international or you know, within, within one region, they'll have a brand scent that when people walk into this space, they're creating, uh, a link or a memory of what it smells like to go into one of these spaces. Now, if you'd said that to me 10, 15, 20 years ago, you'd be like, a coworking company's not gonna make a stent. Right? That why would they care what it smells like to go into the office? And I think now that's become commonplace to the point where actually they now need to do something else to make that experience good elevated or better because people are almost blind to it. Um, in the same way that, you know, I think we talked about this actually a little while ago. Was about audio design and how that [00:14:00] has sort of come into workspace, which, you know, I think from your background, you're a bit more with this and understand it probably a bit more than I do. But like, there's been a couple of offices recently where I've been in and they have had different sound effects playing for different zones in the office to make people feel a certain way. So the classic example, which I, I've, I have heard a few times, and the, um, their outdoor areas or their plant areas, they've got birdsong playing, and this might be inside. It actually can also, you know, there's an example where it's outside as well, but people are almost like being fed these, you know, the different sensory cues to make them feel a certain way, which again, is almost like theatrical. Like you would never assume that to be in a workspace. So. There's that example. I mean, there's also, um, probably, it's probably fine to say who it is. Pinterest, in Dublin, they have, um, sound, I, i dunno what it's called, what the technology is, but they have sound [00:15:00] design where it plays, it reflects the weather. So if it's raining, it will play like rain sounds and kind of mimic what's happening outside. Now that's quite extreme and obviously Pinterest are a big company that, you know, they have a, a larger real estate portfolio, but that is now just like a thing, a, a small detail within an office. So look, I think with the way that we work, that has obviously changed and all of the, all of the, the technology and all of that side of things, but focusing purely on like what I'm seeing is different and is exciting. Um, almost to the point where I'm like, actually maybe it's less exciting 'cause we're seeing it so much, but this is where companies are now going. I. We need to make it better for people to be here. And that might be like an incremental, like 9.51% change if they can achieve that through smell or sound. You know, touch is maybe a little bit more established because we're, you know, we we're used to different fabrics and, and different materials within an office. Um, but even like [00:16:00] lighting and things like that, you know, again, I think there's, there's lots of, there's lots of experience I think being taken from hospitality in general, and that's not just hotels. I think hotels get used a lot as, as a reference point. But, you know, I think we've talked about, karaoke tv and how those like LED screens and some of those immersive environments are maybe now coming into offices. Uh, I know that you were obviously at the experience show recently, so I'm sure there's lots of things that you've seen. That are of that ilk that I think will probably find their ways into offices because individuals, you know, landlords, companies, whoever it is that have these spaces will need to just do that, you know, take things to the next level. Steve: Yeah. And I think going, you said mentioned earlier about mindset as well. I mean the mindset of the, of the, of these owners as well of, I think gone are the not gone are the days, but I think we're shifting and evolving from an office as a square meter and selling space Tom: Yeah. Steve: as a [00:17:00] service. So with our co-working type spaces to then now offices and experience. And I think some of the things that you've shared there are I think a really interesting into how organizations are now moving, pushing beyond the different senses that we have and going deeper with some of those elements. And make no mistake, like neuro aesthetics and the research. The impact of the senses, the smell, um, the, the, the color, the lighting, all of these elements. Even art has an impact on us. When we look at art in our brain Tom: Yeah, absolutely. Steve: just getting deeper and more specific into those, into those elements. I think when we, when we, when we spoke a while ago, I think there was also a, you know, how can organizations, particularly some that have more space available, maybe they're doing something where they have space just 'cause they have it. Are there opportunities, particularly in like in the wellness field, we've talked about hotel where I think you're right, a natural place to kind of extract some Tom: Mm. Steve: and [00:18:00] embed it into the, into the workplace. I think wellness is a really interesting space right now. We know we're seeing. like a new evolution of traditional wellness environments into way more immersive, way more soundscapes, soundscapes that actually connect with the furniture and actually vibrate and rumble and have this kind of Tom: Yeah, yeah, Steve: So I think, uh, I don't know. I think it'd be really fascinating to see. I mean, maybe for me, where my mind's going now is like, okay, how can an organization create spaces for wellness in the morning where somebody's just, just arrived before they start, say at nine o'clock where they're encouraged or just naturally enticed to come in at eight 30, do a little meditation, grab a coffee, but have it in a small or a space that is designed with some really interesting soundscapes, uh, and visualizations for that. And that can be used throughout the day. Tom: yeah, for sure. Absolutely. But I mean, again, like I think, can we potentially challenge the way that we use the office to [00:19:00] improve wellbeing? To say like, okay, I'm in at eight 30, whatever, but like, you know what? The office is open. 24 7. Okay, this is radical, but like, let's say that you can do this, you know, you get 24 hour gyms now. Like, can you get 24 hour workplaces? Could you, you know, theoretically, could you get into the office at five 30 in the morning, go to the gym? I. Maybe instead of, you know, picking up a quick breakfast from a Pret or something like that, or wherever you are in the world that you know, whatever the pret equivalent is. Um, do you have a chef? Do you have food that's there? You know, some companies will provide breakfast for their staff every day. Like, can you look after your staff wellbeing to the point where you're giving them healthy, free food every day? And that's just part of your routine. You know, you obviously touched on meditation and, and those wellness rooms, but I think where we're at at the moment, and I know you didn't sort of suggest this, but like I think where we're at the moment is like wellbeing is like a bolt on is kind of like a, oh yeah, we need to do that. So like, what could we do? And I think for me, like things like, you know, the classic [00:20:00] massage chair, I don't have a problem with it. I get why people have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it. But at the same time, like I do think companies have to think of these things like that. Sometimes they can be a bit gimmicky, but they do have to consider it. And you know, you've seen that it is almost a little bit like the brand sense actually like. Wellbeing rooms or like whatever that is. Um, most offices have one of those now, but really it's just a room with a chair in it. Like, is it really controllable? Can you control the lighting? Can you control the sound? And you customize that environment to a point where it is beneficial to wellbeing. Basically not, most of them are kind of like glorified cupboards, you know, sorry to offend anyone with those, but they are. Um, but you know, like some of the, some of the developments with that I do think will become more integrated rather than just, oh yeah, like we have wellbeing space. It's that room with a yoga mat and a massage chair in it. Sure, that's fine. But like in five years time, I would expect that to almost [00:21:00] be like, oh, we have a wellness program that you are just like automatically enrolled into. That's how this runs. I mean, some companies do it better than others, but I think that's probably always gonna be the case, right? It's like, what's the, what's the minimum viable product? And some of them is gonna be a glorified cupboard and others will probably roll this out to a point where they're really genuinely enhancing, not just supporting, but enhancing wellbeing. Um, Steve: Yeah. And Tom: but I think it, it's a really tricky one to get right, isn't it? Steve: and also to build on that, actually, I think. If, if you are, if you are also building like wellness into your build, into your business, it's weaved into the culture so that Tom: Yeah, a hundred percent. Steve: that is driven or has a, an organic way of looking after yourself and having balance or whatever, whatever the jam might be, whatever words they use to associate, and that happens to be a way in which they can bring that culture to life Tom: Mm-hmm. Steve: aligns into their mission and purpose in a way that a wellness fits, uh, and there's a [00:22:00] way they can express that in that form, then I'm Tom: Yeah. Steve: for it. Right. I mean, go for it. Why wouldn't you? I mean, a gym shark is a, would be a definite one, but you don't Tom: Yeah. Steve: to be, you could still be in financial services, but align that cultural element into there as well. So looking after yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Tom: Trying, trying to solve these things obviously is, is your natural go-to of like what would be the right thing to do. But I think that I would probably draw, it might seem like a bit tenuous, but there is definitely a link between, you know, when you're asking people to come back into the office and also like how you look after people's wellbeing. Is that, I think for most people or what I see most frequently is people talk about the cost of the commute. Like the time of the commute. Yeah, sure. Is a bit annoying. But actually if you were saying to people, I'd love to come back into the office three or four days a week, I'm gonna pay for your commute so you don't have to worry about that expense because obviously that, that's a barrier because of all of that period of time where we reclaimed all of that expenditure to say we are gonna cover that, that's just, [00:23:00] you know, it doesn't come outta your salary or anything like that. We, we pay that. I think you would get a lot more people going, alright, I'll come back into the office, pay for my community. Great. In the same way, I think with that, with wellbeing, like whether it be. Healthy food, healthy lunches, however you wanna wanna look at that. I think if you're gonna look at gym memberships or like that class, the classic, what is it like the cycle scheme, I think what you get like 25% off a bike or something. I might just, just give people a bike. Like it's gonna maybe be two, 300 quid. Like you don't need to get like a super top of the range one, like can you get like a good usable bike to give people? And I think the solution is a hundred percent not to just buy people stuff and give them things. Like that's definitely not what I'm saying. But if there is a scenario where you can listen to people about what would make their wellbeing better or what would make their reason to come to the office easier, you know, remove the barriers. There are solutions in those engagements with people rather than just going, let's put a massage [00:24:00] chair in and get people to come in four days a week. And then when they complain and say, well yeah, but you can have a 15 minute massage in the Lazy Boy, and people are going. Yeah, but that's not what I want. That doesn't respond to my needs. And like it's a, you know, it's a very reduced example, but I think there are things that we could, we, companies, leaders could be doing better to say, okay, gym membership, it's free, it's 50% off, we'll pay for that. Like, you get like measly discounts and it's still a barrier for able to do that. And yeah, I think you've gotta think about work now as a lifestyle choice in, in many ways where people probably do have the luxury to choose a little bit more than they used to. Um, and really it's looking for those compelling reasons to say, yeah, okay. Like that really fits in with my lifestyle, that really, you know, I go to the gym. Great. That's a bit of expenditure taken off, or as you said, actually importantly, the, the culture of that is being like. Yeah, I'm gonna go to the gym, but I'm gonna go at four o'clock instead of seven o'clock because it means that I [00:25:00] can, it's a little bit quieter. I can do what I need to do. I might then come back to the office and do work. I also might not, but I need to be trusted to make the judgment of when I can and can't go. I think that whole, you know, I, I've definitely sat in offices before thinking I've got nothing to do, but I'm gonna sit here for two hours because that's what's expected of me. That is starting to go and, you know, again, I'm, I'm, I'm conscious of trying to like wrap this all back into experience because I think it'd be very easy to just go off on one about what I think a good office is versus a bad one. But the experience, all of these touch points really, and, and that cultural element of like what is expected of me is a really key one to get right. And sometimes that's not a physical, you know, design feature. It might not be a physical giving of a, you know, food or, or tokens or whatever. It might just be this is what, this is how we work at this company. This is the expectation we have of you as an employee. Please, you know, here's the rules. Please. You know, please use them to your advantage almost instead of being scared of, you know, what, what the [00:26:00] outside of, or the, you know, sorry, the, what the output of that might be if you don't do the right thing. So, yeah, I, I know that doesn't exclusively focus on wellbeing, but I do think there is a big behavioral thing that is happening and will continue to happen for, for the coming years. Steve: So I, I want to also, uh, there's a number of ways we can go with this. So you, as part of your YouTube channel, so you are Tom: Hmm. Steve: on the journeys that you've been on, I'm really curious just to get, get underneath on your, I guess, your experience because you are coming in, you are going into an, an environment as fresh pair of eyes, and that's quite a powerful situation to be in for those that are in Automo. And then you kind of just automate a lot of things when you work there every single day. Tom: Yeah. Sure. Steve: but what, what's the, what are you, what's the experience like, what are you, what are you, how, what, how do you feel about, like, how does it impact how you feel and that experience, your experience of going [00:27:00] into these different environments? 'cause there's a couple I want to raise as well, a little in a, in a, in a little Tom: Sure. Steve: think really. We're amazing examples on your channel. Tom: Hmm. Steve: but I just, yeah, just wanted to dive into like, how would you express your journey and the impact of those spaces as you walk into them and as you kind of get behind the scenes of these different places of work. Tom: Yeah, I mean, good question. And I think there's a few different I. Ways of looking at it. I think ultimately for me, like I have ne, I haven't designed any of these spaces that I've gone into, and so I, I need to learn as much as I possibly can about that space when I go in. Now, there's a couple of different ways of doing that, and I've kind of got better at it. Oh. You know, as I've done more tours and sometimes, sometimes you just know, and like, it's like anything that you do, you walk into a restaurant or a bar or [00:28:00] anywhere and you just get the feel of like, yeah, this feels good. Like typically that'll be things like lighting, sound, smell, whatever. But flow is a really important part of a space and so. You can only really get that at the end. I find like you can't go into spa, into a space and be like, oh, this has great flow. Like when you go on that tour, you then start to go, okay, like this makes sense. Like this is logical to my brain that I can walk into this environment. It's almost intuitive, right? To the point where you almost know where to go without knowing where to go. Um, and I think that that's been a really important thing to understand and has probably benefited by going to so many environments is like learning how to just absorb like what's going on. And also just like learning about why certain things are where they are or why they've been done. Now conversely, that will also reveal to you like a bad environment is, and do you know what I, I've been in a number of great offices that, [00:29:00] well, let me just rephrase that. I've been in a number of offices that visually look great and you'd go, wow, that's incredible. Look at the size of that screen, that lighting that, like whatever feature they have in. Let's take it, this office, they had a, a beautiful bar right in the middle of the office. And when you got, or when I got under the skin of that office, it only really occurred to me like there wasn't really any great reasoning behind any of it. Like it was just, it just looked good and so therefore we did it. And I think that those offices are good examples of poor environments where there's no real logic behind certain things. And I think the point I'm getting to is that I've, I've learned to understand the reason why things have happened. Not just like, what is it, but like what does that give to you? How has that changed the way that you do things? Like why is that there? And, and to be honest with you, some of the best offices I've seen, and arguably the best office I've seen in the last two [00:30:00] years was in Amsterdam at Miro, which is a software collaboration tool. I'm sure some people would've used it. And I said this to, to the guys that, that we met there like. From a, from a design perspective, there's nothing like radical in there. Like there's no cinema, there's no swimming pool, there's no like mental thing in there. You'd be like, oh, that's so cool that everything was just every question we had. They could say, oh yeah, we did that because we did some testing. And actually that's what came out as the most popular thing or, yeah, we put this here because we asked staff what they would like to see here. And so we just did that and we're gonna review that in like three months time. But for now, like we're pretty happy with how that works or we put this in. But actually within the first 90 days that we've realized that this is not gonna stay and we're gonna change it and we're working on that and like there was like this really incredible. I dunno, just like logic and reasoning behind everything. Like literally everything in that office, they knew why it was there. And I think that's the difference between like an exception [00:31:00] environment and just like a good one where you've got, you know, we can go, you go into one and be oh yes, quite. I could probably imagine working here, like I could probably sit at that near that window like, oh cool, we get a bit of like free food and drink, like nice games, room, whatever. And then you go somewhere like that and you're like, it is almost like a living, breathing organism where it's changing constantly and it's evolving. And I think that that's the, I guess the impact on me is like trying to imagine what it's like to be there day to day. Not just like walking around and saying like, oh yeah, this is cool. Like trying to sort of be friendly and, and say nice things. 'cause ultimately sometimes you do go to offices and they're not great and you have to go, yeah, this is really good. And actually you just kind of think. There's so many things that are inherently wrong with this space, but sure, as an office, it is an environment that performs. You have desks, you have meeting rooms, you've got a breakout space. But I think, you know, you talked about impact, and I think just really understanding why things are the [00:32:00] way they are is the difference between a good and or like a, a bad and a great one. Um, because I'm obviously only there for a very short space of time, I typically might have like one visit to, to understand the space, and then the next time I go back is to shoot the thing, right? So I, I have a snapshot to kind of form my judgment, but, um, what the reason why is, is probably the, the most important thing in an office. Steve: I love that. And I think, uh, just to, just to build on the mirror example, Tom: Mm. Steve: um, there's a few things you mentioned there, which I think is really important. Um, there's, there's a few companies in Sweden that I think mirror in some way. Uh, and where they got it right was this word experiment. Tom: Right. Yeah. Steve: to this, they, they're in constant like beta, right? So they're constantly trying and testing different things. Tom: Yeah. Steve: and also that Miro one is a really nice one. I'd also maybe argue that. The office is a representation of the [00:33:00] organic nature of their product because the product never stops changing and evolving and growing and new features, probably the way they work is very co-creation and iteration in terms of how they, their embedded ways of working, uh, and very product design led. Tom: Mm-hmm. Steve: so I, I I, I, it's a hypothesis, but I, I think what I hear is like, it, it, that could also be quite a mirror of how they work and their culture. Tom: are. Yeah, you're right. It absolutely is. And that, that is a, a, a known fact amongst the mirror ears as, as they're referred to. Um, that's how their product works and that's how they treat their customers. And so they almost treat their employees like their customers with their product to say, Hey, we're doing this thing. If it's not good, let us know. But equally, if it's good, tell us and we'll do more of it. And yeah, it's, I dunno, like, I dunno if that's like a, a particularly like tech thing to do, like kind of like thinking in that certain way, but like, really, like a lot of companies, most sectors have [00:34:00] this. There is this element of innovation and progress and like solving problems. So like whichever angle you want to look at it, like most companies for their customers are trying to make their lives better in one way or another, but when it comes to their office design, they don't reflect those values. Whereas I think Miro is just a very, very good example of where everything is joined up. They've done pretty, like, pretty much thought of everything. Like it's hard to think of something that they hadn't considered, but then you go to other offices and go, okay, you guys are in the same sort of sector, got the same sort of demographics of people, but your office like doesn't respond to anyone, to any of those things. And look, as I said, some, some companies are gonna be more equipped in terms of skillset, knowledge, appetite, to make it the environment. Great. But. When you are, when you are sit, when you're sat with the team behind an incredible office like that, and [00:35:00] really all they're telling you is like, oh yeah, we just basically asked our people like what they wanted. Like, oh, right, is that it? You are like, yeah. I mean obviously we did it in like a kind of complex way. Like we engaged with 'em like repeatedly. We asked them questions, we did this, we did that. And it's not like they've got anything that anyone else has, hasn't got. Right. But what they have done is they've gone, if we are designing it for them, then they need to be involved. We need to ask them what it is. Um, I mean, again, like to the point where, I mean, I dunno when this, this episode's coming out, but it's a, a revealed on, on the podcast I did with, with one of those guys out in Amsterdam, is that they actually got their staff to choose their contractor, the architect. They actually put that to a vote. Which I've never heard of before, and they, they know how insane that is. But they also appreciate the value of people have, being able to choose and be being able to input into that, where all of a sudden you're like, okay, well cool. Like I understand [00:36:00] like the, the ethos of this company that's gonna be doing my office. I like that. I'm on board with that. All of a sudden, whichever changes kind of come, whichever shifts you're then expected to follow, just become that little bit more digestible where you go, yeah, okay, well I chose this so cool, like, fine. Um, but Yeah. absolutely. But Steve: I. Can I just ask? Well now let, let's, let's, let's di because you hit on something there around like form and function and Tom: yeah. Steve: I dunno, I'm, I'm gonna be very, uh, direct with this, but, and this is just my but do you do see sometimes when just put an architect to it and then they just go design the new office. Tom: Mm. Steve: and there's that end of the spectrum with some of the best furniture and the most polished this and, but just functionally it just doesn't, work. What, what's, where's the balance in that? Um, I know we just shared a nice example on one where it's more co-creation, but Tom: Mm. Steve: how do you see that? Just 'cause obviously you [00:37:00] get, you get behind the scenes on, Tom: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I feel like, I do feel like we're, I dunno if, if this thing is extreme or not, but I feel like we're coming into this like, age of functionality where that, that the purpose or the usage or like being able to do certain things is gonna like, almost like override everything else now. Important thing to say is that like functionality I do think is the most important thing within an office. However, design hundred percent matters. Like it matters how it looks, it matters how it fits into the office. And to your point, I just don't think you can rely solely on furniture to do that for you. Um, I think there's lots of different ways that you can make that work, but kind of to not. 'cause the thing is, I could use Miro in literally every example that you asked me about and I'm not gonna do that. So I'll go the other way. And then for an office I've seen in London where it's completely the other way round where , they [00:38:00] have a, have a nice office, they have a nice office in a good part of town, and you're kind of going around and being like, this just doesn't even make any sense. Like you've got desks next to sofas, next to other desks that have kind of got a divider in between. It's kind of like, I don't really understand why that's there. Like it doesn't. Like what is not form? Because it doesn't look good, but it's not, it's also not function because you couldn't do the things that you are required to do in those different settings. 'cause the proximity to everything else. So I think that sometimes it's easy to say, oh yeah, well, like that looks really good, so it must be a great place to work. Or indeed, we've got loads of furniture, we've got loads of cool pods, we've got loads of this. But actually, does that work as an environment? And the, the classic example, or definitely one from recent times is like that informal seating area, right? I've have the nicest sofa in the world if you want. Pretty much every office I've gone to, that has been a moment where the, the head of workplace has gone to me. This is the informal [00:39:00] breakout space that nobody uses. And there are so many examples of great furniture, comfy seats that people go, that's just there, but nobody really uses it. And you kind of think, why is it there then? Like what's the point of that? And I think that. You know, you talked about this constant state of beta and we've talked about this like need for perpetual change. And I do think that's where offices need to kind of get to is that, you know, we talked about the experimentation as well. Like I don't think it always needs to necessarily be an experiment. I think sometimes it can just be a case of like, weird seeing that this isn't really being used properly, so let's just do something else there because we know that that's not happening. Um, so yeah, I think definitely function is really, really important. You need to, things need to be in the right place. There needs to be a reason for them to be there in terms of their making, I don't know, their easing pressure on the meeting rooms, or there's a certain type of person that needs to use that within a team. And, and that's why in that part of the office and not somewhere else. But at the [00:40:00] same time, like it still does need to look good because I think that cohesion is really important to that. And like, again, I mentioned that flow, but that all comes from design and consideration because. In theory. Yeah. If you just create loads of these little pockets of space, they could be used. But I have seen it where that has happened and literally it's like, yeah, none of this really works or makes sense. And some of those are like the quirkiest bits of the bits of the office, but people just kind of go, yeah, that doesn't, doesn't really serve serve us. I'm just not gonna use it. Steve: Mm. an example, uh, uh, one, one of the examples from your, uh, from your YouTube channel, which was, which was really good because there was something unique about this one, which was with Santander. Um, could you, are you able to share a bit on that? Are you able to just Tom: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Steve: went beyond that I, I, I thought was such a good example of a company who thinks outside just the boundaries of themselves, which I thought was really interesting.[00:41:00] Tom: Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll be, I think I know what you are talking about, but if, if it's not this, then, then correct me. But I think with, I think, so this is Unity Place up in Milton Keen's. Uh, it's the Santander hq, but it's like a a half a million square foot office complex almost. Um, and I think the, with the, the architects, which was LOM behind that, there was kind of like, the brief was more than just like a, a banking hq. And there was this kind of like, focus on community Now that, that's touched on in many different ways in that building. I think there's, there's two examples that stick out to me. So first of all, I think with Santander's location, I think they have been based in, in Milton Keens for a little while, though they've had property there for a little while. Um, but also within that space, they've got almost like a, I wanna call it like a development space, but it's a bit more than that in that they have classrooms and podcast suites. They have a green screen production studio. [00:42:00] Uh, and this is all kind of geared around like local communities, like particularly Milton Keynes University, MKU, uh, and some other groups as well, where they just kind of let them use their facilities, which I think is a really good cause of allowing your space to be more than just your office. You're developing other organizations around you. But then beyond that, and I don't, truthfully, I don't know how much Santander had to do with the final decision on this, but throughout. The ground floor of this building is pretty much everything you could think of in terms of like powering a, a small town. So within the office building itself, you have got a barbershop. I think they, they did have like a pop-up lare, which I think wasn't there when we went. They've got a bakery, a brewery, and the brewery is run by a company called Toast that makes beer from off cuts of bread. So the brewery and break, brewery and bakery, easy for me to say are in good [00:43:00] harmony with each other in that that's how they make their bread. You've also got a contactless convenience store, so you can, if you do need anything, you can go and do that. You've got a, an Indian restaurant which is part of the, the complex which is open at certain times. It's not like you could go and get curry for breakfast, but you know it's there. Um, they have a massive auditorium space. They have an urban food market, which is basically. Like, imagine like a street market, but like physical stores, and that's supported by local, local providers or local, um, local companies. I guess that they would be, they come in for periods of time and do their different food. So I think when I went there for the first time, there was a, a Jamaican lady there with honestly some of the best jerk chicken and plantain ever. Like, it was unbelievable, but they changed that, they cycle it. So there's always that level of variety. Um, I don't think I've missed anything inside. And then at the top, they also have a, a [00:44:00] sky lounge, uh, which is open to the public, but again, like typically is, is populated by the, uh, the building tenants on mer a Thursday evening or, or a Friday evening. But it, I suppose I was speaking to the, uh, one of the architects behind the building on, on the video, and we basically ended up describing it as this like mini campus, which it self-contained. Like you didn't, you like, if they had somewhere to sleep, like you could literally live there. And I think if there's ever a zombie apocalyp apocalypse, I know exactly where to head because literally everything is there. And like, don't get me wrong, that is a very unique example where everything has been considered and put into one space. But if you think about the complexities of, you know, having a banking HQ out of town, you know, typically it might have been Canary Wharf, but those guys are up there. Everything does need to be kind of considered in a way where like, okay, we're asking you to come to this office, but we have kind of got your back. We have got you covered. [00:45:00] I do think that makes a difference to the experience level again, where it's like, okay, well if I'm gonna be here, I, I can just be here and I can do everything I need to do. You know, the fact you can get a haircut I think is, might seem gimmicky, but it is the practical things that, you know, people need to do. And I think that that's, you know, this lifestyle thing I, I kind of mentioned to you earlier this like lifestyle choice. Like work is a lifestyle choice. Like can you work somewhere where you can do everything that you need to do, as I say, whether it be a laundry or whether it be going out for dinner with your friends, like you can meet at the office. Um. I think that's a big game changer, but I think hopefully that kind of covers any of the things that you liked about it, because really they, they, they really had community first and foremost. Because also, just to add to that, all of those facilities are also open to the community, which is very unique for a, for a banking hq where you can actually go into a bank's building and go and use these, these things, these, these facilities. So I think community is another really interesting aspect of where [00:46:00] workplace experience will go. I think that is a leader in a number of areas, really. Like that's probably ahead of its time. Um, but I think more buildings will, will go that way. Steve: Yeah. I agree. God, so much to unpack. I mean, I think Tom: Yes. Yeah. Steve: nice, uh, it's amazing 'cause I, I think it's, we need to be giving back to communities. We need to supporting these local ecosystems and to, Tom: Mm. Steve: we're gonna reimagine these huge spaces, which now. many of them are, are struggling or they, you know, remain empty or there's like just sitting on huge real estate Tom: Yeah. Steve: I think there's an example here in Sweden, which is like Ericsson. Um, you know, they have, they have a huge, and I'm in a huge campus, which I, I, I'm, I'm aware, I think they released some of, some of their square footage now. Tom: Right? Steve: and it's in a quite a, quite a tricky part of, uh, part of town, but it's. Tom: Mm-hmm. Steve: Like, how can we serve local businesses? How can we create an ecosystem of startups inside of a larger [00:47:00] scale business? I think Danska Bank did this, Tom: Right. Steve: ago, I think, where they created in the ground floor, they had it open for different like startups, Tom: Yeah. Steve: ended up doing was bringing the exec team down from the top floor, of course. Uh, and bringing them down to mix with this kind of more startup innovation, that kind of thing, to blend these two, Tom: Yeah. Nice. Steve: yeah, blend these two groups together. And so I, I think also to, to the point with the brewery and the bakery, like the creative element to give local Tom: Mm. Steve: to, to, yeah. Create, to bake bread. I mean, amazing. You know, Tom: Yeah, Steve: to do their passion, so, but with the benefit of also serving a wider community-based, uh, or ecosystem as well. So, Tom: for sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I think it's really difficult to build a, to build a building of that scale and then just privatize it and say, yeah, sorry, you can't do anything with it. Because that, and I think that's [00:48:00] probably the biggest victory for that building. Um, I think that there are, people can, people can be involved in it and people can, you know. Have their kind of part to play in it, even if it's just going to the, to the ATMs and the banks, you know, using the Santander banking services that are in that, on that ground floor, which is another feature I, I hadn't mentioned in that previous list. But all of a sudden, like, it just changes the way that you'd look at a, a building or a space. And I think that community element is a really important thing to, to get people behind, not even, you know, not even to fill it from a workplace perspective, but making it, uh, an amenity for, for everyone. Steve: Hmm. Tom: Appreciate that. That again, isn't gonna suit everyone, but I think that is where they've done well. I think they've already won some awards and I wouldn't be surprised if they win more of them, um, just because it has been very well considered. Steve: Yeah, good on them. Anything with community at the heart, it's very important. Tom: [00:49:00] Yeah, absolutely. Steve: branding for Santander as well. I mean, it's Tom: Well, exactly. They benefit from all of that, for sure.. Steve: So look, Tom, just to kind of give a sense of the future. where do you see the evolution of, office workplace experience? Is there kind of any directions that you see either emerging or doubling down on in deepening as we, we continue on this, uh, debate on how work, future, workplace and experiences. Tom: Yeah. I mean, I don't necessarily think this is something new, but. Maybe something I'm surprised that hasn't caught on more is, if you remember back to, it might have even been pre covid, but particularly early days of Covid talking about this like hub and spoke method of having, it's almost like satellite offices and then like one big hub in in the center of town. I do think that that will be something that maybe happens more because I'm only just kind of like racking my brains of examples of where companies have maybe taken space [00:50:00] further away from town. Because you know, there's actually a number of coworking companies I can think of that have got their bases in like commuter towns really. They're not in the center of London, but they're like in commuter spaces. And actually that's maybe proving successful for them because that's where the people are and they don't have to commute to get there. So I don't necessarily think that's like a huge revelation, but I definitely think that that will or could happen more. Should we say that that could happen more for companies to say, well look, do you know what actually you guys are kind of. I think, again, I'm, I'm basing this on tech in that obviously you don't need to be in the office to do that. And there's a number of companies that will have engineer centers or data centers out in like Lithuania or Warsaw or you know, Poland, that, countries like that, that actually people are kind of happy to work over there, but do they get that experience? I don't know if that matters. So I think there's like a bit of a thing going on with that. But I think like generally there is this like obsession [00:51:00] and, and again, this, this is not necessarily as a plug, but with my work, my workplace podcast, that concept is talking about what future workplace and. That comes from a point where I feel like we are just obsessed with knowing the answer of like, what's next? Like what's gonna be the thing that solves all of our problems. Exactly. And like trends, obviously trends come and go, but like you, you see this new thing of, oh yeah, this is really important, but like they just sort of become part of the picture over time. Right. That what I tried to do with that podcast was open it to a point where, what it's called Workplace 3000, the concept is that set in the year 3000. So if you could take anything to that time, what would it be? And ultimately that just removes a lot of like realism and it kind of gets to the concepts and the points that people actually wanna make. So like I think that what I've learned from that is if I really analyzed it, I'd probably find a lot of very similar themes within what people are talking about. But [00:52:00] I think you do kind of get to the point where, actually one of the things I've, I've definitely noticed without doing the analysis is people are talking about like. Not getting so overwhelmed with technology and AI that you lose the human element. So whether it be the creativity, whether it be the decision making, the emotional parts of it, like basically not replacing ourselves with technology and that there is still a place for human nature, let's call it. Right? Um, that's come up a few different times in a few different forms. And I just kind of wonder whether we need to, almost like, this is gonna sound a bit weird, but like whether we need to like put so much tech and so much AI into our offices, into our environments, so that we almost go, oh actually yeah, we shouldn't have done that. And let's go back to like what we know, which is kind of like the trend thing, right? Like, like when, I dunno, a certain pair of trousers comes back in or certain haircuts come back in, you kind of [00:53:00] go, oh yeah, we haven't done that for a while. Oh yeah, no, that wasn't good. Let's not do that. And then it comes around again. I think there's definitely a thing where. We're, we as a collective are looking for the answers for what the future workplace is gonna be. I therefore think that is gonna make certain things happen, be it tech, be it wellness, be it some of the examples that we've shared today that people go, do you know what, yeah, we are gonna start doing that in the office. I was actually just connecting with a, an old friend about a company that he's looking to set up that is all about, you know, snow rooms and plunge pools and saunas, but specifically for, for commercial offices. Like that could work. Like that might just be a thing. But I almost feel like we are in that point of like exploration and imagination to figure out like how do we blend our lives and work? And either we'll go, nah, that's dreadful. Let's not do that. Let's just really focus on the human connection. Or we'll go, no, this really works. So we're kind of creating these like community centers and these community hubs where work just sort of becomes [00:54:00] part of what we do and it, it's less. Like going to work, like you just kind of go to a place like it, it comes back to, you know, you said at the start, like the first, second, third place. Like maybe there is a merging of those worlds and becomes less defined, but it'd be so easy to sit here and be like, oh yeah, the future is gonna be, I dunno, like cryotherapy pods and this is how it's all gonna work. But like, it's just not practical and it, it's not gonna change anyone's life. Like to a point where like everyone starts doing it. That I think, or I'd like to think we're in a point now where there maybe is a bit more exploration and imagination. Think okay. Like what could go in an office that maybe student or like typically hasn't, and like how can that help us and make us better? Um, I would like to see more of that. Now whether that happens I think is a different thing, but I would like to see more moments of that. And I think again, like it, there are examples that I've seen on, on the tours and the visits I've done where there are things in offices now like. Uh, [00:55:00] like podcast studios and production suites. That, for that company, that makes a lot of sense to them because that's what they do. It doesn't mean that a law firm needs to start doing that, but I think maybe companies will start to explore and experiment. Like, what is it that can really enrich the environment that makes us more effective? Makes people like being here. Um, 'cause it doesn't all have to be about free stuff, right? Like, I, I gave those as examples earlier, but I think it will be a case of like, just trying to figure out like what could we bring in that will actually make it a great place to be, not just necessarily work, but like what makes it a great place to be. So, Yeah. I think it's, um, it's a really interesting landscape. 'cause obviously every company thinks they're doing it right. Every rival thinks that they're doing it wrong from their competitors. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think it's just this kind of ongoing, ongoing battle. But I would love to see a bit more, you know, just. Sinking outside of like, oh yeah, like plants and nice furniture. Like, yeah. [00:56:00] We're kind of way beyond that. Like can we get to a point where there's actually now things that you're going Yeah. Like an office isn't just an office. You know, I would say that I think that idea of place is, is a really interesting one. Steve: And I think, I think also as well, like I think it's well, well shared and I think just shining the light on that to invest in a space, your office space beyond just like what we. I think if we, if we ask most people, Ima imagine an office, most people would just be quite boring in how they think about Tom: Mm. Steve: You know, it would be, Tom: Yeah. Steve: there's desks, rows of desks, there's chairs there, blah, blah. Tom: Yeah. Steve: think for me, sometimes I had a question which I was gonna maybe pose as well. Like, what if we just like literally blew up the office thought of what an office looked like and start from scratch, like a bunch of Lego bricks and what, Tom: Yeah. Steve: what could it be? Um, and re-envision that. Um, and, and also just to share as well, there's something that came randomly, came to mind as you were sharing there specifically in the community is also looking like where, what are the industries that [00:57:00] are, could be unearthed some really interesting things. Like for an example, and this might be nothing Tom: Mm. Steve: but in, in the local community, gardening. As an example where we Tom: Mm-hmm. Steve: farming and all around London, there are so many community-based gardens where they grow things, they share best practice on how they do stuff. They collaborate on clearing an area, they'll help each other. It's fun, it's social. Tom: Yeah. Steve: of those things. Maybe a bit too social on a Saturday night with a, with a whiskey. Um, , but it's something right in that of how we, how can we maybe look at the office as a, as more of a community builder because we know that there's a lot of mental health issues. We've got, you know, a lot of siloed, a lot of like loneliness right now. What if, what Tom: Hmm. Steve: it was an enabler for that kind of conversation, um, and built for that as a start point and then, Tom: Yeah, absolutely. Steve: just a, just a thought I had as you shared that I Tom: Yeah. No, I think, I think that's a really [00:58:00] good one. And like, to be fair, I think there are, you know, I, I know a decent amount of workplace people, let's call them workplace professionals from different sectors. And to be honest with you, most of them have either worked in the same company, worked with each other, or at the very least, know each other and, and speak to each other. Like socially or, or privately, right? So like there is a big networking community within workplace professionals currently. So there is, without a doubt, these guys are sharing. Successes, failures, ideas, concepts, contacts, whatever you wanna say. Right? But it's, no, it's not been formalized. And, and to be honest, I would say the same for the architects of the world. They probably get together, talk about things, whether it be one-on-one, be it as a group. I know that there are certain groups in London that, that do this, but I think you're right. Like I think it, what would be really cool whether we can ever get there is whether we can remove that. Like [00:59:00] the competitiveness between like, oh, these companies are like number one competitors, so we could never talk to them. They steal our talent. We still there as et cetera, et cetera. Like how can you make those, like how can you learn from one another to kind of make that better? I don't see what's wrong with that. Now admittedly, I don't have one of those companies, so I'm sure there are things wrong with it. But I think to your point, like maybe there just needs to be more of like a knowledge. Sharing piece and the community piece. And, and to your point, it doesn't all need to be specifically related to the design of an environment. It might be, you know, loneliness, wellbeing. Is there other things that we can maybe do together that, you know, remove some barriers that kind of bridges some gaps? And, you know, I think there are probably groups that do this on like, on a micro scale, but it would be cool if an office was kind of more, um, more linked up with, with the rest of the world. [01:00:00] And I also want to just, what I'm thinking of that is like your point about blowing up the office, like we still sort of talk about the, the nine to five, which just, I honestly just don't think it exists anymore. And I think it's naive to think that, um. Do people work in very different patterns and ways? Yeah, absolutely. So like, do we need to think about the physical environment and how that supports, you know, for example, I said, you know, should the office just be open all the time and you just kind of come and go and you need to do that and you know, the hours are more flexible, whatever. I think, you know, with the, the construct of the, the working day being so different, I think our environments probably do need to follow suit. And that, I go back to that example of the hub and spoke, and we probably do need a better term than that is like, can you just go and work somewhere that's more local to you but it's equipped with everything that you need from an office, but you can kind of jump in and jump out rather than having to make the big slog there, the big slog back and actually probably only doing the same amount of work, [01:01:00] when you're, when you're in this environment. But I think it's, um. Unfortunately, I feel like there is a, a lot of conceptual ideas. Um, I dunno how we make some of these changes, but I think that's where we got a kind of look to some of the, the bigger organizations and maybe indeed some of the smaller ones to see what they're doing and, you know, again, listening, learning, um, and seeing if, if other companies can implement those changes as well. Steve: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, uh, super interesting 'cause it's, it's also breaking very old paradigms in organizations from architecture to how we think about real estate to shareholders, to pensions that might own the real Tom: Yeah, yeah. True. Steve: so, so it's, so, it's a huge ecosystem in itself. Tom: Mm. Steve: but I think, um, an interesting one, and I think you've chosen a very interesting, um, area to focus in as part, as you work as part of your work, Tom. So, uh, Tom: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Steve: how can people find you, , where's the best place to consume your content Tom: yeah, perfect. So I guess the best place to find me [01:02:00] is on LinkedIn. My personal LinkedIn is very active. That's where I kind of almost use it, like a bit of a blogging site, things I've seen what's going on in the world. YouTube, if you want, the more polished, full length office tours that are kind of like MTV cribs and a little bit of Channel four style, uh, office space videos, and then also Spotify for Workplace 3000, um, where you can listen to other professionals from the workplace environment talking about what they see the, the future workplace being. So any one of those three, or a mixture of them, uh, will kind of give you the, the latest insights from, from what I am up to and, and indeed what workplace you're up to as well. Steve: Fantastic. I would definitely urge the audience to check out. I, just from my perspective, 'cause I'm a bit of a YouTube, uh, but I don't really watch TV these days. But, uh, YouTube is the one so I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed some of your content, Tom, so, uh, Tom: Very Steve: going mate. I know it's, uh, been a project in its own to get it up and running, so, but, Tom: much. Yeah, absolutely. Steve: good. But, uh, Tom: Thank you very much. Steve: thank you for joining and I'm glad we got this, got this hooked [01:03:00] up and together and, thanks again for contribution to the Experience Designers podcast. Tom: Yeah, thank you everyone. And yeah, great pleasure to meet you Steve. Cheers. Steve: Tom.