Why Do People Do What They Do? Behavioural Science Meets the Experience Economy

[01:00:00:00 - 01:00:02:16] Steve So Leah, welcome to the Experience Designers. [01:00:02:16 - 01:00:04:17] Lea Thank you so much, Steve, it's good to be here. [01:00:04:17 - 01:00:16:09] Steve You're very, very welcome. And we are here, obviously, the mecca of the Experience Economy with London Experience Week this week, which you are one of the keynote speakers on the main stage today. [01:00:16:09 - 01:00:16:23] Lea Yep. [01:00:18:01 - 01:00:26:05] Steve I'm not gonna kind of give too much in what you're gonna talk about, but we're gonna definitely touch on it with a part of this conversation for sure. But let's just start. [01:00:27:13 - 01:00:36:18] Steve So I wanted to ask you a question first. That might just take us back a little bit, but you've built a career out of understanding why people do what they do. [01:00:37:22 - 01:00:43:21] Steve So why do you do what you do? And what do we need to know about Leah to help us understand that? [01:00:43:21 - 01:00:45:03] Lea Wow, that's a good question. [01:00:46:11 - 01:01:02:14] Lea Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I'm excited to be here because I think, plus in this room, you know, it's like we're actually experiencing the Experience Economy. You should see what we're surrounded with, by the way, post posters from like the 2000s and 1990s, it's amazing, it's really immersive. [01:01:02:14 - 01:01:03:01] Steve Yeah. [01:01:03:01 - 01:03:36:08] Lea But yeah, I mean, secondly, I feel like whenever I think about this question though, because again, I'm a behavioral scientist, so I might be a bit biased with myself. So I kind of like to ask people about like, hey, you know what, like, what do you think? What do you think I am? Who do you think I am? What do you think I stand for? And all those things. But sometimes when I refer back to myself, I think that regardless of what people might say or could say, potentially there are two things that I always see coming out as the main things. I think the first one is like being an extremely curious person. You have to be very curious about humans and why we behave in the way we behave and why we do what we do. You have to be quite curious about the state of the world. So when I was younger, I'd say like maybe nine or 10. I think it's the first time I say this on camera in that format, but my mom used to buy me like a thousand reasons why books, because you know, Google wasn't as prevalent as it is now. Obviously we had no access to AI tools like the younger generation does at the moment, regardless of obviously this misinformation. At least they have access. Some things we're obviously going to speak about in misinformation, but yeah, my mom used to buy me those books because I was just a very curious person. So I used to get those on subscription once a week. It was about science, technology, politics, diplomacy. I used to also, I remember maybe when I was 11 or 12, I used to put like this like random 24 hours news channel on constantly, because I wanted to know what was happening globally from my living room. So I was always kind of this very curious person. That's the first thing. I think the second thing is a very like deep person. I never go by just surface level conversations, thinking. I just, I mean, my friends can attest to this. Everyone around me can attest to this. I always want to know the depth of their feelings, the depth of why they do what they do, the depth of human behavior in society. I went as deep as really cracking astrology. As a behavioral scientist, I can read bird charts. This is very paradoxical because I'm very analytical, but also it just bridges the gap between like humans and also this kind of spiritual element that we all should embrace. Astrology is very powerful. And I think once you understand it, it gives you a good view around like humans. But that's a different topic as well. I could do like a, that could be a sequel. It would be like a click bait sequel. People would be shocked. But yeah, I'd say curious and deep. But you should ask people around me as well. [01:03:36:08 - 01:03:49:03] Steve So thank you for that. Because I think it's also like, we all come from somewhere, right? We've all got this kind of red threads. I'm really interested on the curiosity. Where else were you curious as well, just kind of growing up and? [01:03:50:06 - 01:04:05:04] Lea I think like I've always been very international as a person. I think I speak, I write in three languages. My mind is a bit, it functions in three languages. So I feel like because I've got this, you know, this openness to understand cultures, [01:04:06:04 - 01:06:01:02] Lea because I'm from Lebanon originally, but I speak French. I am a UK citizen, you know, I built my career in the UK. Like I worked in Dubai. So I'm always exposed to very different cultures. So I feel like this curiosity also comes from like bridging worlds. And you know me now, you know, it translates into my work too. I like to bridge industries. I like to bridge tech and media. I like to bridge the C-suites with Gen Z. I like to bridge different people and different generations. Now I'm a millennial, but I'm on the coast. So again, I've been studying Gen Z and Gen Alpha for a very long time. So I like to make people aware of those changes. So I guess this curiosity comes from wanting to be a bridge between the cultures, the West, the East, being quite open-minded as well. I feel like I've always been this person, could it be within the company that I've built and the culture that I'm instilling as well, or across, you know, my friendship groups, my family. I'm just this person that loves a humanity, you know, and just encourages everyone to be more open-minded and support each other. I embrace that in my personal life. I embrace it in every single decision I make in my business as well. So I feel like this, it goes back to maybe the third word, which is very ethical. Like I like to be very ethical. And I feel like people can see it. And the clients that I want to work with should also have this standard too. So being curious led me to read more, educate myself beyond my academic degrees, but beyond that, you know, with my real life experiences, you know, the experience economy, and from there, understand the character that I want to build and the character that I want my company to embrace, especially in today's, a bit more, in today's like a bit like, today's a bit like, I'm not gonna say it's a bit negative, but in today's kind of polarized world, it's nice to have a point of view and to push that point of view ahead and to be a voice, you know, as a young woman in business, I think it's really important. [01:06:03:00 - 01:06:06:13] Steve Let's just talk, because I love that share about bridging. I think it's amazing. [01:06:07:14 - 01:06:24:17] Steve What's the challenges right now with this? Because it kind of this hierarchical paradigm that we have in organizations, the classic, isn't it? Kind of the C-suite not really having a clue even what's going on in their own operations, kind of on the grassroots, never mind their customers or their members or people. [01:06:24:17 - 01:06:29:23] Lea Oh my God, I'm changing that. I'm disrupting the whole system, the pyramid is gone. [01:06:29:23 - 01:06:32:07] Steve Loving it. Let's talk about that. [01:06:32:07 - 01:06:38:03] Lea This is such a good question, because I mean, the traditional models, [01:06:39:04 - 01:09:25:02] Lea the traditional model has shifted, the traditional models have shifted as a whole. You can't really build in today's attention economy, creator economy, experience economy, and this hyper-digitalization, you can't build based on old models, they just don't work anymore. The new generation that's coming to the market doesn't want that, their value system rejects that, they've got more exposure, they've watched creators making millions of one or two videos, it's not the norm. Obviously it's a very small percentage, but it influences how your kind of character and memory, how they're actually formed, how they're both formed. So I'd say that because of this exposure, because of those kind of new economies that are coming to life, what used to work in the old model, those linear careers are completely broken. Non-linear careers at the moment are succeeding the most, those soft skills essentially, like adaptability, wanting to open yourself, wanting to be agile, wanting to connect with people. I always say, anyone can take away your reputation, but not everyone can take away your character. So if you stay consistent and understand your skillset and build yourself, you can really develop yourself, you don't want anyone to be, kind of to stop you from doing it. So I think what I love about Gen Z and beyond that, we have research that points to this, is the fact that they're way more skeptical about the organizations that they work for, which is great, because they're seeking this work-life balance or work-life integration. They're friends or people they work with, they encourage people around them, but also they know what's fair and what's not fair and what this world has to offer. So I'd say that if you're someone in a traditional company, if you want to really work to, I don't know, like adapt a bit to the environment that will encourage your people and the kind of the opportunities that sit within our industry, as well like the marketing and media industry and the experiential space, the opportunities are amazing for young people right now. If you want to really connect with them, you have to unlearn some things, you have to unlearn how you used to function five, 10 years ago, five, not even 10, 15 years ago, five, 10 years ago, and re-adapt, ask them the questions, look at the new jobs, the new industries that are being developed thanks to non-linear careers right now. So I'd say, yeah, this pyramid, in my company, for instance, people know how humble I am or how humble people should be and how important it is to connect with your team and you're as good as your team and how good it is to hire the right people with the right self skills. People that connect with our clients show that they care and just end up doing amazing human focused work because they care so much. [01:09:25:02 - 01:09:54:12] Steve So let's split that into two ways. So I'm gonna start with actually the audience from a generational perspective. What is truly happening? I know there's a lot of narrative that's gone out about Gen Z and I think quite negative actually on many regards. I think they've got their shit hooked up actually in many respects. So I'd love just to maybe dispel a few myths in this, what's being sold, actually what's happening. And then of course alphas as well, which I'm really curious about as well. [01:09:54:12 - 01:12:56:04] Lea Yeah, they've got their own language. Yeah, it's fascinating when you speak about audiences because again, your organization can truly connect with their end consumer if they don't understand how they are and the Gen Zers that they work with because employee experience and needs to customer experience always and forever, EX and CX are so interrelated. So understanding that Gen Zer that you work with or the younger person that you work with is as important as understanding the customer that you speak to because okay, there are some roles in life and there are different benefits doing a certain thing but you still speak to the same person with their own generational cohort. And within the generational cohort, obviously you've got differences because again, it's not like homogeneous, they're all very, very different. But when we speak about Gen Z, I agree with you, there are so many conversations that I've debunked over the past years around the fact that they don't care about work, they're lazy, all of those things, but actually they care about doing something quite meaningful. So if you're able to find this emotion reward and put it back their work, if you're able to just speak to them because as human beings, we want to feel seen, human behavior hasn't changed that much. Belonging, safety, love, connection, feeling seen, fear, all those things are, that's why we say the one thing that hasn't changed in life is human behavior because if you understand human behavior and behavioral science and all the biases that shape us, you can really predict a certain change because there are things that don't change. So they still want connection, they still want belonging, they still want those factors, but the problem is the industry has stopped designing for it. Everything has become algorithmic, everything has become, like I always say, it's become like same Zs, it's just a Gen Z slang as well. It's become so similar that there's no taste, distinctiveness anymore, but there's still human beings. So we basically created this, we basically created a lack of distinctiveness, a lack of creativity, a lack of, we've created this ecosystem and it's quite sad because even social media has become so polarized. So I think there are so many factors, again, technological and cultural factor that has affected how they see the world, but it's not their fault. There are still people that want to connect, so if you look deeply into who they are, they're very equipped, they've got access to everything. They were in a knowledge economy, they grew up in a knowledge economy. So if we're able, and I've seen that with Gen Z, I've worked with, I've seen that with the young people that I know, when I connect with them, and you're able to make them feel seen, make them feel like they have a choice, because humans like to know that they have a choice. If you give them more agency, if you don't just look down at them, which is the mistake that a lot of people have done, then you'll find something back. You just need to look at it from their perspective and how they've grown up and the ecosystem that they grew up within, instead of blaming them for the world they grew up in, it's not their fault. [01:12:56:04 - 01:13:09:06] Steve It's a fascinating one, because also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but from a talent group perspective, and actually human numbers period, they are the biggest generation in terms of number of people populous. [01:13:09:06 - 01:13:10:07] Lea They are quite extensive. [01:13:10:07 - 01:13:11:11] Steve In the history of mankind. [01:13:11:11 - 01:13:13:14] Lea They are extensive, yeah, they are extensive. [01:13:13:14 - 01:13:18:12] Steve So any tidal wave coming our way, it's gonna feel significant. [01:13:18:12 - 01:13:20:08] Lea It's gonna feel significant, but also-- [01:13:20:08 - 01:13:21:16] Steve But also, we have to adapt to that. [01:13:21:16 - 01:13:22:14] Lea We have to adapt to that. [01:13:22:14 - 01:13:23:05] Steve As businesses, yeah. [01:13:23:05 - 01:16:37:03] Lea Exactly, but also what I keep saying is us as millennials, for instance, we were the last generation that grew up in the pre-internet era, pre-social media era and post-social media era. So we saw both. Gen Z, they have to do that due diligence for themselves. So there's something, I think I told you this last time, but I think there's this whole myth in the industry going back to myth where attention spans have decreased. Actually, I'm not gonna say they haven't, because there's no proof whatsoever if they have decreased or if they haven't, because as a behavioral scientist, I wouldn't be comfortable saying if they have decreased or not, because of neurodiversity and a lot of different factors, you can't really measure attention. You can't measure attention. But what I'll say is there's no proof that attention spans have decreased whatsoever, all this conversation that we don't process anymore, it's not true, because there's no proof. We're not able to find the proof, it's so nuanced. But there is proof, though, that we've built sharper filters. So I don't call it attention spans, I call it filtering spans. We got much better at filtering out information and filtering in what we want. Gen Z has gotten probably, I don't have a number, but probably much, much, much, much better than everyone else at filtering in or out that information, because they grew up in that era at the core of what they do and what they consume. So they've gotten so used to, if we've got, we've gotten so used to like, oh, we don't want this, there's a great symbol, great we want it, a great brand association, great we want it, we don't want it, okay, amazing, we don't want it. But with Gen Z, for example, when they look at something, they automatically know whether or not they want it or not, meaning that there's this whole misconception that they're less loyal, less brand loyal, and actually, because they've gotten, and they've built those mechanisms, so they've gotten so much better at filtering in and out those information, that information, then they really end up more brand loyal, because they know the symbols, the associations that they want to kind of connect with, and they want to associate themselves with. So I think that if we change the semantics, if we look at it as filtering processes, that will help the industry, because the problem is, if you keep talking about attention spans, we're going to be creating shorter, shorter, and shorter, and adding to the problem, adding fuel to the fire. So we have to change it to filtering spans, sharper filters, meaning that they got much better at filtering information, once they're filtering in, they engage with the creator, they create content about your content, they remix your content, they engage with you as a brand, they think that needs to change. I think only, even if you look at semantics, if you look at research, and I think this is going to inspire me and my team to look at filtering spans with Gen Z specifically, we've looked at it in general, we've compared attention and filtering, but I think we need to look at it in terms of Gen Z now, because I think it could be fascinating to look at the level of filtering that happens, because from a behavioral science point of view, they grew up with those sharper mechanisms. In our research, we already see that they score higher in terms of wanting to pick out things and wanting to ignore and discard things. So that could be really interesting to look at, especially for the future of Gen Z as well, and the way they work. [01:16:37:03 - 01:16:41:04] Steve I can definitely see that in my kids, I can tell you now, yeah. 100% oh yeah, yeah, I can watch it. [01:16:41:04 - 01:17:42:06] Lea Exactly, exactly, it's fascinating, because as a behavioral scientist, you know it, based on the biases that we know about, we know it based on what we see, the experiments, the observations, the work that we do, because we're practitioners, we work with platforms, we work with brands, we see it in real time, but I think that it's time to maybe showcase it in terms of this generational cohort, because we talk about it in general, hey look, human beings don't have shorter attention spans, and I'll speak about that in my keynote, so heads up, but we've built sharper filters, it doesn't mean that we're less brand loyal, we're more brand loyal, and we want to give our attention, as long as it's intentional. So our industry has to change, because we have to change the way we speak about things, because again, we'd be adding fuel to the fire if we keep creating shorter and shorter, and then how can you connect with people if you end up creating shorters, and you're going to empower this passive connection, instead of getting people to actively engage with you, so I just think some semantics need to shift as well. [01:17:42:06 - 01:17:53:14] Steve So there's a couple of little things, particularly in the experienced economy field right now, so let's dive into these, because yeah, all right, one of them is around transformation economy, so there's quite a lot of talk around transformation, which is a big one, [01:17:55:03 - 01:18:04:01] Steve but I'm also around connection, human connection, that there's this kind of pivot back to that people are looking, seeking, et cetera, what do you see on both of these? [01:18:04:01 - 01:19:23:20] Lea Oh wow, I just finished a report around this, again, can't disclose a lot, because we're going to speak about it at the massive event end of June, most people might know what this event is, because it's end of June, but it's fascinating, because we keep seeing this need for connection, we've quantified it actually, we've quantified it, we did some behavioral modeling, where we quantified the need for connection, and honestly the peak was huge, because people speak about it, they speak about the experience economy is booming, we need to connect in person, we know this, everyone knows that, everyone's feeling it, we're seeing the investment in the experience economy, which obviously is amazing, but there's no tangibility to it, or actually there's no link between authenticity and commercial outcome. I'm a behavioral scientist in the marketing industry, my mission is to show that human impact equals commercial impact, because that means we can get investment back, so this is why we did this piece of work, by the way, but yeah, there is this need to connect, and I think, if you look at behavioral science, and you go deep into behavioral economics, there's the law of polarity, when something increases, something else increases, at the opposite end, so we had hyper-technology, hyper-digitalization, at the opposite end, there's this need to want, to read, and to experience, AI, okay, you need taste, this human judgment is fundamental, especially as this is happening, [01:19:25:04 - 01:19:52:06] Lea Evan Spiegel, the founder of Snapshot, he mentioned that on a podcast, I think it was three, four weeks ago, where he said that, and I agree, because I always speak about this, the rise of vibe coding, and the rise of hyper-digitalization, means that marketing and distribution, and those teams will have the most success, because the best marketing team is so needed at the moment, and the best distribution strategy, when everything else is the same. [01:19:52:06 - 01:19:52:15] Steve Yeah, exactly. [01:19:52:15 - 01:20:23:19] Lea So it's exactly that, so this is why we're seeing that there's a psychological reason to it, there's a behavioral reason to it, and I'm really excited about it, but my mission now, and you'll see, my keynote, I'll mention it, is to prove the commercial outcome, because it's great to speak about it all day, every day, but we have to prove return to brands, we have to prove that actually this human need is a fundamental equation to a brand's success. We're seeing it in brand entertainment right now, so we need to prove it more and more in the experienced economy, because it's going to keep growing. [01:20:23:19 - 01:20:44:17] Steve I mean, I think the role and responsibility of brands and companies now, it's kind of extending even further, right? It's going from a good economy, to making it easy for customers, too, apart from them, but then also to engaging them through experiences, but then you go beyond that now with the transformation economy, but they've got to stretch even further, probably from their core product, to be there for customers in different ways. [01:20:44:17 - 01:20:59:22] Lea Completely, I mean, I always say, as a mind scope, as my company, we thrive in transformation briefs, we love them, because again, it goes back to bridging the gap between two worlds, like it's getting BBC on YouTube, so we've helped BBC to scale on YouTube. [01:20:59:22 - 01:21:01:08] Steve I was going to ask about that, tell me about that. [01:21:01:08 - 01:22:23:00] Lea So that was really interesting, because from what I can speak about, obviously, it was fascinating, because when you look at the media legacy brand, that's so embedded and anchored in obviously the trust that they've got, but also the pressure to transform, and to change and to shift, because we know the value of the creator economy. At that point, YouTube had taken over their BBC in terms of total monthly views, so, but they made such a courageous decision, and finally, bold and amazing, and the results are amazing, like a great decision to actually, you know what, we're going to ride the wave and push because we are the BBC, you know? So instead of going out there, just putting the content wherever, this team is so talented, we work together on it, they're working on it in real time, and instead of doing that, they've done their homework. So we went ahead and we dissected the psychology of under 25, it's actually on YouTube, to understand what they look at, why they look at it, what's missing, what are the real topics, you know, what are the real moments that we should speak about, you know? To create that diversity of thought, because so many of those young people, as we talked about, are in echo chambers, so they did their homework, you know, the BBC, and they ended up creating specific IP for YouTube to funnel people back to the brand and an iPlayer. [01:22:24:02 - 01:22:25:15] Lea So it was-- I noticed that, actually. [01:22:25:15 - 01:22:26:11] Steve I saw it on YouTube. [01:22:26:11 - 01:23:17:04] Lea Yeah, yeah, yeah. How interesting. It was amazing, but I'm saying, but those come from the trust that we've got, like, my main BBC contact, he knows who he is, like, I've known him for a long time now, and we've been speaking about this and those changes, and again, I'm a thought leader, my company innovates a lot, we've got Innovation Labs, so we know what's happening in real time. So I think what we love to be is this trusted human compass, this credible, trusted authority that's there to support them and to guide them to build a direction that they wouldn't be scared of, because with any transformation, we think there's friction. But we love friction, because when there's friction, it means things are working or they're worth changing. So that was an amazing kind of case study. We were still working on it, like, I had a call on this this morning, like, we're still working on it, so it's fascinating. [01:23:17:04 - 01:23:36:14] Steve Tell us about Mindscope and how this came about. Oh, in my dreams. I know we're not free-called, I was kind of like-- In my intuition. I'm so jealous. You're right, that's why you're in such the right place. Aw, thank you. You are right. You are definitely, I have to tell you, you're like in the sweet spot right now. [01:23:36:14 - 01:26:40:15] Lea So tell us about it. Thank you, thank you. I keep saying there's no better place than the synergy of human behavior and technology right now. You're right. No, it's interesting, because I've always gone off like, I guess I'm always gonna have like wanting to do really good work and great results. Like, I ran into Sam Fay, who I worked with at some point, you know, on one of her briefs, and you know, before I came here, she kept telling everyone like, this piece of work, oh my God, it was so much fun, it was amazing, it changed everything. And I was like, I love this, I love results. You know, I love, when I see that things are not working, I just love finding a solution, and I will have to find a solution. So I feel like because I've built my reputation in the behavioral science industry, in the marketing space, little by little, maybe because of me speaking on stages, or because I'm young, I don't know what it was, but little by little, I've got, like, I don't know, like, people from the tech industry, the entertainment industry, the cultural spaces, again, the experience economy, they kept reaching out to me to be in those spaces, but also to support. So I was like, interesting, because more and more, the media silos have completely collapsed, and I always say that. Tech has become entertainment, entertainment has become commerce, commerce has become media, everything is completely like, the silos are gone. So I was like, okay, wait, that's really interesting, because I've built my reputation as this, like, modern behavioral scientist. But there's no behavioral science consultancy that specializes in tech, entertainment, culture, and commerce. There's no behavioral consultancy in the tech and entertainment space. No, like, who works with platforms, who works with commerce brands in that space, who works with, like, those, like, innovative brands, and, Who's the bridge, right? Exactly, who's the bridge? And at that point, I had spoken on stage with Alex Mahon, who's the Channel 4's former CEO, I had spoken on stage with Rodan Harris, the Snap president, I had done, like, a lot of big things with big execs, and I was like, okay, it's time to build a suit of my own, and to basically support them, to build the solutions that they're requesting. So, I mean, to answer your question, I think I just like solving problems. I like solving, I'm solving a real-time challenge, and making their lives easier, and again, being the compass. And I think especially in an algorithmic ecosystem, where everyone's just talking and bickering about AI. Yes. I love to be there as the voice of, like, science, but also the voice of reason sometimes, and the voice of creativity. I wanna make behavioral science more accessible, more creative, again, being the bridge between science and art. I'm an executive judge at the International Academy of Arts and Sciences, I would judge the Webby Awards, so I'm the first behavioral scientist that ever judged the Webby Awards, so I'm just making behavioral science more and more mainstream, you know? At South By, KAKAN Lions, MIPCOM, London Experience Week, like, just making it more mainstream. So I feel like because I was able to, I guess, introduce it, and make it important, and make it the foundation in the tech and entertainment space, within the behavioral science industry, we were able to really succeed. [01:26:40:15 - 01:26:43:20] Steve Amazing, and you brought one of your clients here today? [01:26:43:20 - 01:26:47:08] Lea My Pinterest clients, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:26:47:08 - 01:26:52:10] Steve That's about Pinterest, because they've just dropped a beautiful update on their marketing. [01:26:52:10 - 01:26:56:03] Lea Yeah, they're awesome, so I feel like right now, they're-- [01:26:56:03 - 01:26:57:02] Steve I mean, it's spot on. [01:26:57:02 - 01:27:21:00] Lea It's gorgeous, because the thing is, it's just such a digital ecosystem, you know? It's such a heavy digital ecosystem at the moment, that there needs to be more platforms that, I mean, I always say that, that invest in the experience economy, and they are, Snapshot is doing it massively. Like, Snap is one of the main platforms that does that, but Pinterest more and more, as well, so Pinterest, at the moment, is valuing the power of the offline. [01:27:22:06 - 01:27:48:12] Lea So, in the past, we used to say that, like, you should extend your physical brand, physical identity as a person, as well as a brand, you know, you should extend it online, it's shifting now. You have to extend your online identity offline, to reconnect with people, and Pinterest is at that sweet spot, because Pinterest is your personal board, Pinterest is where you upgrade, Pinterest is where you create your own personal ecosystem, what better than Pinterest to extend your personal brand offline? [01:27:48:12 - 01:27:49:02] Steve Yeah, nice. [01:27:49:02 - 01:27:57:23] Lea So they're awesome, because they were able to, to kind of bridge the gap between what people wanna be inspired by, and what they activate in real life, and who they are in real life. [01:27:57:23 - 01:28:02:00] Steve And it's something I've done-- Offline, so-- Digital to bring it into, for real life. [01:28:02:00 - 01:28:06:15] Lea Coachella, at Coachella, they created the phone-free space, as well. [01:28:06:15 - 01:28:07:21] Steve Saw that, totally, lovely. [01:28:07:21 - 01:28:57:00] Lea It's really good, and like, what they're doing at the moment is awesome, because in an era where everyone's talking about AI, as well, and the fear factor that's coming from that, actually what they're doing, though, is just being the voice of, hey, you know what, here's creativity, here's space, here's distinctiveness, here's being human. You could use technology, but also you can use it for good. It's not, again, the hero science, it's not at the opposite, they're not mutually exclusive, they can work with each other. So it's about-- Technology. Technology was, I always say, technology was always built for a human outcome. As long as you know what the benefit is, you won't experience any diminishing return. If you build it for the sake of building it, then you will experience diminishing return. You will create worse, and you will do more wrong, faster, for the worst outcome, if you don't evaluate the human benefit first. [01:28:57:00 - 01:29:02:12] Steve I mean, imagine that, I'm interested to see now how the content evolves on Pinterest to serve that off. [01:29:02:12 - 01:29:04:22] Lea Based on it, exactly, it's the whole ecosystem. [01:29:04:22 - 01:29:08:17] Steve That's gonna drive, yeah, so that becomes, that's so smart. [01:29:08:17 - 01:29:24:11] Lea It's a brand consistency. But again, I think Pinterest, when my company launched, and the press release, one of the main things that they caught on, and I said was, the fact that investment, because we're in a world where you need diversity of bots, you can just have one platform that takes all the investments, [01:29:25:16 - 01:29:48:03] Lea you have to kind of have different platforms for their own benefit. So I said that investment will move from those, like, just the one pod that is currently ad, I won't say which platform, but everyone knows, to Pinterest and Snap, because one, the younger generation is there, and that's how they connect with their friends, that's how they connect with themselves and express themselves. They own that space and they want to, because both platforms are more authentic. [01:29:49:10 - 01:30:25:19] Lea And two, there's so much that you need, as an advertiser, as a marketer, you need to start understanding that the old model is broken. People don't behave on those traditional platforms like they used to, and they're migrating to different platforms, or at least the people that you're trying to speak to, the people that wants to resonate with you, are not where you're trying to find them. And I'll say that in my keynote. I think it was about 87% of marketers are saying that they're chasing stronger output at that speed, but only 61% of them connect with their audience. [01:30:26:22 - 01:30:45:02] Lea Look at that. So they want to innovate, they want to change, but they don't know where to find them. They're not connecting with them because they're on their own platforms, and they're not designing for the right benefit on each of the platforms. So what we bring back is that behavior be so close to all these dynamics that you don't lose them in the process. [01:30:45:02 - 01:30:53:05] Steve Quick question, because you've mentioned it a couple of times, these old paradigms just aren't working anymore. What components of it aren't working anymore? What are people still doing that-- [01:30:53:05 - 01:30:56:04] Lea That's a really good question. Impressions. [01:30:56:04 - 01:30:57:05] Steve Yeah, okay. [01:30:57:05 - 01:31:05:02] Lea Impressions equals choice overload sometimes. Honestly, it includes the fact that, hey, actually, if someone's looking at you, it doesn't mean they're looking at you. [01:31:06:13 - 01:32:01:05] Lea Attention. It's not about attention. I keep saying now, and I'm teasing one of the pieces of work that we're gonna share in a month, what people pause on is much more important than what they click on. In the attention economy, if they're able to pause, it means that you actually created something quite meaningful. You make them pause, and when actually you're out there trying to chase things 24-7. So the pause, the power of the pause, the deliberate pause, the strategic pause, the cooling off period, it's not a loss, it's an opportunity. So I'd say that impressions, attention, and again, clicks, it goes back to the click point. Click can give you an understanding of the funnel, the bits and pieces that are in the funnel, or the loop, as I call it, the fact that awareness purchase happened at the same time, but clicks on their own are not enough. You have to go beyond the click and into the motivation behind the click. So if they came from reviews, they're seeking safety. They came from TikTok, they were seeking entertainment. [01:32:02:08 - 01:32:15:05] Lea There's so much out there that no one is really turning into insights. So yeah, you have to be quite proficient in psychology and technology to get to that point, which is why you love my job. [01:32:15:05 - 01:32:16:11] Steve I do. [01:32:18:16 - 01:32:23:13] Steve I feel like this is just getting more complex, I think, for the tears, no? [01:32:23:13 - 01:32:26:19] Lea It is getting complex, we need to simplify it, which is why we're here. [01:32:26:19 - 01:32:27:16] Steve Yes, exactly. [01:32:27:16 - 01:32:41:14] Lea We make the complex simple. I go on stage and people understand finally, because it's like, hey, it's not as complicated. It looks complicated. But actually, if you understand human behavior, it can't be any simpler. It literally can't be any simpler. [01:32:41:14 - 01:32:52:16] Steve So could you share with us a little bit around human behavior? Particularly, let's say, I just wanna know what would be interesting to hear about some of the shifts, the big shifts that you're seeing, and you maybe even foresee. [01:32:52:16 - 01:33:10:14] Lea I think it's really important to differentiate each vertical and each market. So if you function, if you work in a tech, it's very different than fashion. If you work in fashion, it's very different than if you were to market in FNB. If you were to market in FNB, it would be different than if you were to market in travel. [01:33:11:20 - 01:34:19:05] Lea Understand your industry. So there is some crossover. There is finance and tech, there is fashion and tech. Again, you're a separate vertical. You're in FinTech. You're in fashion tech. You need to understand the vertical that you function in, because the context is very different. There's a piece of work, again, we are practitioners, as you know, that we've done recently, where we found that everything else fails if the context fails. So if your environment is not built with the message, then it won't connect with people. So you have to understand the, not just the message that you develop, but you have to understand the environment that you are building for people. So for instance, if you're in fashion, you develop a very, very different ecosystem than if you were to market in tech. So I guess that first and foremost, understand the industry, that you work in really well, and do your homework. So understand the verticals. Secondly, the market that you function in. So for example, tech and APAC is very different than tech in the UK. In APAC, we found that they're very ecosystem-driven. If you've got an Apple Watch, you're gonna buy this ecosystem. They're not as fluid when it comes to picking up different brands. [01:34:20:19 - 01:36:06:11] Lea The opposite happens in Europe, where, for example, they're quite like techs, like ad skeptic, but a price discount, a promotion, a nurgency bias would change their minds. In APAC, no, it doesn't happen as often, because that's not how they function in their culture. So you have to really understand the markets that you work in as well. So I'd say if you want to create a simple playbook, one, understand the vertical, within the vertical, the market. You're already five steps ahead than any of your competitors. Once you do that, understand your audience. And my keynote, you'll see the first thing at the end. Behavioral science sits here. Understand your audience, understand who your communities are, not just the demographics, not just women, 18, 54. You miss out on so much richness. Understand what I call typologies, like the motivations, the needs states, the psychographic profiles, the personality types, all of those things that sit behind your ideal customer profile. Understand those people. Once you understand them, hey, that's awesome. You understand your vertical, you understand your consumer, and then you understand the market that you play in. And then you have such a strong foundation to do the research. Go out there, speak to them, understand what they want, build an ecosystem around what they want, because if you don't do the work, you're gonna lose out on revenue in the long term, which is why you need to crack your audience. First and foremost, I'm a behavioral scientist, but most of the people, most of the panelists I spoke at in the past year were like, understand your audience, like audience first IP and entertainment, understand. It's true because even if they're not behavioral scientists, they are promoting this audience understanding because they've seen diminishing returns when they don't. So I'd say do that. But first, [01:36:07:18 - 01:36:15:09] Lea helicopter view, your vertical, your market, once you do that, crack your audience within that. [01:36:15:09 - 01:36:15:23] Steve Amazing. [01:36:15:23 - 01:36:19:14] Lea So what plan-- It was just a teaser. It's like one per cell for like a game. [01:36:19:14 - 01:36:21:20] Steve A lot, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not too much, sorry. [01:36:21:20 - 01:36:23:17] Lea No, I can't give more if you want. [01:36:23:17 - 01:36:24:00] (Laughing) [01:36:25:05 - 01:36:26:07] Steve As part two or three. [01:36:26:07 - 01:36:26:16] Lea Exactly. [01:36:26:16 - 01:36:31:00] Steve So we've talked about myths a couple of times. Yeah. Because I know you love a good myth buster. [01:36:31:00 - 01:36:32:16] Lea Oh, I'm a myth buster. [01:36:32:16 - 01:36:33:00] Steve Okay. [01:36:33:00 - 01:36:37:21] Lea It's always like Leah Karam and her bald insides, or Minescope and their bald insides. [01:36:37:21 - 01:36:38:19] (Laughing) [01:36:38:19 - 01:36:40:02] Lea It's a reputation now. [01:36:40:02 - 01:36:42:03] Steve You should get a little stickers now, you little myth buster stickers. [01:36:42:03 - 01:36:42:21] Lea Little, bold. [01:36:42:21 - 01:36:45:03] Steve So tell me, let's share some myths. [01:36:45:03 - 01:37:06:15] Lea Okay, let's go. Do you want me to get caught? Yeah, go for it. Okay, I think we mentioned it, but the attention spans thing, we have to reiterate it. The fact that attention spans, again, there's no proof whatsoever that they've decreased, but there is proof that we fill sharper filters, meaning that we're more loyal. So be counterintuitive in your work, because sometimes it's not as obvious as it is. [01:37:07:18 - 01:37:33:22] Lea The second bit I'd say is the fact that, again, when you create more and more and more, and because there's more data out there than you know more, it's actually wrong. The fact that there's more data out there means that you know less, because you end up not ingesting it in a way that makes you understand people, so you might know more about them, or you don't understand the real things because you're overwhelmed by all of those data points. So I'd say always differentiate data and insights. [01:37:34:22 - 01:39:15:03] Lea A big myth as well is the fact that, oh, people are like, oh, great. Again, it goes back to the old model stuff. We need a social media manager, we need a campaign manager, we need an impression buyer, and no, no, no, no, you need a cultural semiotics expert, you need a psychologist, you need a data scientist, that's the future marketer. You need someone that can understand the machines, you need someone that can go through kind of this algorithmic ecosystem, so you have to understand that you can't really reevaluate or kind of solve the problem that you're in based on past job titles. It goes back to the pyramid and everything shifting. I think people always also think that transformation happens overnight, and sometimes it's hard, and sometimes I'm just saying you don't want to give up, but actually enjoy the process. We are in one of the best times, especially the experience economy. It's thriving, like my tech clients are investing in the experience economy, like more than ever, you know, because that's how they connect with communities, because community exists when you're not in the room, and it gets reinforced when you're in the room, so making sure that you invest in that, and making sure that you don't see the experience economy as, hey, this is like at the back of people's minds, but actually you need to remember that it's becoming a bit more at the forefront of their mind to connect with communities, but I will say though that there needs to be more proof, there needs to be more work to showcase the commercial value, their return on investment, because again, we are still in a performance economy too, so I'd say that. Are there any other myths that you think we should make bust? I don't know. [01:39:15:03 - 01:39:22:02] Steve I'm thinking, yeah, maybe some of the generational tags that we have on some. [01:39:22:02 - 01:39:23:15] Lea Gen Z or lazy. [01:39:23:15 - 01:39:26:07] Steve I'd love to go further, maybe like mine, Gen X. [01:39:26:07 - 01:39:27:02] Lea Gen X, okay. [01:39:27:02 - 01:39:27:22] Steve I might be interested. [01:39:27:22 - 01:39:32:21] Lea Are we Gen X? Okay, okay, I thought you were like Mila, yeah. I thought you were like the British. [01:39:32:21 - 01:39:47:06] Steve Yeah, because I find, it's really interesting, I find that I go down quite a lot to some behaviors in even Gen Z to a certain degree. Oh, I always say it. I don't feel like I'm right. There's always this conversation that we're so put in these buckets. [01:39:47:06 - 01:41:24:03] Lea No, no, it's not true at all, exactly, because there was an event two months ago where I said that Gen Alpha or the new baby boomers, literally there are so many similarities between Gen Alpha and baby boomers. They're going through some of the same things in the sense that they tend to be a bit more disconnected, but they're also experiencing new revolutions, the AI revolution. There's so many things that bridge them, both with each other. So I always say I don't look at people as generational cohorts. There are cohorts that share similar culture and technological traits in terms of careers, in terms of how they consume social media. That's true, that's how it happens. But within the cohorts, you've got very, very, very different people. And it's important to always remember that there are psychographic profiles, there are cultural profiles, or behavioral profiles, institutional profiles. So I'd say, yeah, that's very important to consider. It's nice to have them in buckets just to differentiate the life stages, but with Snapshot, even like an interesting example was the fact that Snap is the Gen Z platform, but also there's a big opportunity with Snap now because you have to think about it in a strategy way, in a very strategic way. Is Snap the Gen Z platform, or are they the youth platform? It's very different. Because if they're the Gen Z platform, they have to follow them through the life stages. They're growing, they're evolving, so they're marketing, their product strategy has to be different. If they're the youth platform, then they're gonna market to Janalfa next. So two different strategies. [01:41:24:03 - 01:41:28:08] Steve They just stay still, and then the youth come through and then eventually let it go. [01:41:28:08 - 01:41:28:18] Lea Exactly. [01:41:28:18 - 01:41:29:21] Steve That's interesting. [01:41:29:21 - 01:42:55:09] Lea Two different strategies. So I feel like it's good sometimes to think in terms of generations when you think about platforms, but you have to crack the, okay, what does it mean to be this generation? It means we're the youth, but there's a youth that's going to take over as well. Okay, so what are they defined by? So Gen Z is defined by subcultures, wanting to connect within sub-communities and micro-communities, and creating Finstas and burner accounts, and just wanting to be private, and we love this. That's why Snap works really well. Is Janalfa going to be the same? They're showing those traits, but they're also showing a will to experience life to the fullest. So it shows, okay, they want to be private, but in communities, go the experienced economy. Yes, it's amazing for you if that keeps happening, because that's what we're seeing with them right now. They want to be private, but they also want to experience in the real world. Then this is something that will define them. It doesn't go to show that there aren't differentiations, because going back to Gen Z, they are a subcultural cohort, meaning that within Gen Z they're very different. Even your Taylor Swift fans, you've got the 1989 Swifties, then you've got your full-cloar Swifties, then you've got your tortured poet Swifties. Don't ask me how I know that my siblings do. She's awesome. She's a great artist, but my siblings adore her. So, and same, like she's amazing, but it's like, it's a showcasing that there are different communities within each cohort. When you understand what shifts a cohort, then you can understand the subcommunities that sit there. [01:42:56:10 - 01:43:16:20] Lea Millennials, you weren't that separated with subcommunities, but we're also not that similar, but still we're not as different than Gen Z is with each other. So again, being very strategic with that is fundamental. So go back to your vertical and the markets that you play in as the first exercise, and then go do that like audience understanding exercise. [01:43:16:20 - 01:43:34:01] Steve I've got one final error I just wanna ask you on. Of course. It's a small one, but I just wanna cover it, because this is something around this word that came to me as you were sharing, authenticity. And I think this is really interesting in going from this kind of digital and bridging into them physical, and this kind of two ends now with likes of Pinterest now. [01:43:35:05 - 01:43:58:01] Steve Just to ensure that we're not going down kind of just these kind of pop-up brand activations, because there's tons of, but where's this kind of authenticity in the real reasoning behind it, beyond the money-making, beyond profit, that little bit edge beyond that to really doing good. And so, yeah, just like, there's this thing that just, I'll just ask you about, yeah. [01:43:58:01 - 01:44:53:06] Lea It's a really good question. I'm also mentioning that, I think in the second slide of my keynote, where I say that actually, as Mindscope, for example, we don't solve problems in silos. We're like system thinkers, and this is what's happening at the moment. It's like system thinking, and that's one of the best types of thinking, because with Pinterest, for instance, like in Snap and those platforms, if they're able to bridge different worlds, if they're able to not go just by campaigns, but by ecosystems, by infrastructures, and I'm gonna say it on my keynote, but the behavioral science nudge era is gone. It's not about nudges anymore, because if you just nudge here and there, it doesn't work, because people can talk to your brand and engage with your brand before you even speak to them. So you have to understand that behavioral science has become this infrastructure, that the cultural ecosystems were in, the infrastructures that we've built, the platforms, the experience economy, the creator economy, so it's about really bridging worlds. [01:44:54:08 - 01:45:15:21] Lea And I think that if people start thinking less in terms of silos and campaigns, and if they think more in terms of their audiences and the human mind and how they don't differentiate, as long as there's a human benefit and a reward, then it's easier to bridge that world. That companies have always been first movers in everything, so look at what they're doing, and then you have to follow through to some extent. [01:45:15:21 - 01:45:16:23] Steve Amazing, amazing. [01:45:16:23 - 01:45:18:18] Lea I could speak to you for a long time. [01:45:18:18 - 01:45:21:08] Steve Leah, I think you're gonna come back on the podcast one day. [01:45:21:08 - 01:45:22:17] Lea For sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it. [01:45:23:23 - 01:45:43:05] Steve Do you know what, can I just say, you are-- Send your questions. You are one to watch. I think everybody listening to this, watching it, I think please follow Leah, I think you're on a really good trajectory. I'm very, very curious to see how the next few years unveil for you with your business and what you're doing. I think you're in a really good space. [01:45:43:05 - 01:45:44:06] Lea Thank you so much. [01:45:44:06 - 01:45:46:10] Steve So thank you for taking your time before you go on the stage. [01:45:46:10 - 01:45:47:00] Lea Of course. [01:45:47:00 - 01:45:54:22] Steve You are in the green room, hello. This is where some famous DJs actually sat, so that's getting ready for their shows that you want to do. [01:45:54:22 - 01:45:57:06] Lea From a DJ to a behavioral scientist. [01:45:58:08 - 01:45:59:00] Steve Rock and roll. [01:45:59:00 - 01:46:02:01] Lea We talk a lot about the rise of intellectual influencers now. [01:46:02:01 - 01:46:02:09] Steve 100%. [01:46:02:09 - 01:46:07:17] Lea Because people want trust, they want communication. So DJ, watch out. [01:46:07:17 - 01:46:08:13] (Laughing) [01:46:08:13 - 01:46:09:04] Lea Watch out. [01:46:09:04 - 01:46:10:21] Steve Thank you so much, amazing. [01:46:10:21 - 01:46:14:16] Lea No, that was really fun. We'll do a part two soon. [01:46:14:16 - 01:46:15:08] Steve Thank you. [01:46:15:08 - 01:46:15:21] Lea Thank you.